IVF-Infertility.com home

AUGUST 2008 ~ BUMP BUDDIES

Announcement of pregnancy and birth following assisted reproductive treatment.

Postby tryw8 » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:02 pm

Hi Everyone,

It's me and Cody right now. The little guy just doesn't want to go down. He woke me up at midnight and then again at 3am. I'm getting up with him now because my DH will be going back to work come Tuesday. I have two more months home with Cody so lack of sleep here I come.

Cody doesn't have an appointment with the pediatrician until next month but I'm a bit concerned or maybe it's me being a typical "worry-wart". I'm worried about his little penis. He had a circumcision the morning after he was born. It has healed beautifully but I'm worried that the foreskin has grown back. I don't know how it is supposed to be especially since I'm a first time mom with a boy.

My DH says that I worry too much. He doesn't seem to be concerned. Any of you other moms with boys with advice will be greatly appreciated.

Michele, CONGRATULATIONS on Ella Michele! Welcome to the world of motherhood/parenthood and everything else that goes with it.

I hope that the rest of you are doing well. I've got to get going. I hear a fussy Cody. Will write more later.

Karen
Failed IUI
hysteroscopy/laparoscopy 1/07 (blocked tube,endo)
IVF 5/07 BFN
FET 11/07, BFP 12/07
07/31/2008 (508am) --> our son was born!

Image
tryw8
Regular
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:24 pm

Sponsor
 

Postby tinaO » Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:44 pm

Hello!

Karen - if it makes you feel any better, we worry about EVERYTHING! Can't help much on the circumcision thing as Noah's is still too fresh. I worry right now as his looks like it has a couple of white spots on it that look like they have pus in them. Is that normal? Have you tried researching on the internet? That is what I am about to do.

Tina
Me - 40; DH - 42
2 IUI's-BFN
1st IVF: BFP
Noah was born 8/20/08; he's our world!
Started FET 7/11
Only 1 frozen to transfer - praying for another miracle!!!
[url=http://www.TickerFactory.com/]
Image
[/url]
tinaO
Regular
 
Posts: 463
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:39 pm
Location: Texas, United States

Postby seltzer » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:08 am

Tina & Karen,

My son had a circumcision and it looked raw for a while, if that's the right way to describe it. That said, areas of pus are not normal. Tina, call the pedi if this is what you are seeing. Karen, the foreskin cannot grow back. Maybe what you are seeing is that not all of the foreskin was removed during the circumcision. Do you think this is what it is? Maybe you should check w/your pedi to ease your mind. I found that my son's circumcision didn't look "normal" for quite a while. It takes a long time to heal and look normal. Just think: they are cutting off a lot of skin.
Me - 41; DP - 43
8/2/08 - Keira Grace born
12/10/06 - Nathaniel Paul born
Image
seltzer
Regular
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:28 pm
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby 2ndtimer » Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:53 pm

Hi Guys,
about the circumcision... Connor's dressing fell off from the circ the day we got him home from the hospital. I though DH was going to faint. As it healed, the skin had a little white/yellow looking places -not pus but just wet scabs. This is normal -yucky drainage is not. If in doubt don't hesitate to call the ped, but until it heals just expect it to not look good.

We are still struggling with the umbilical cord hanging on for dear life. It is very yucky now. .

Other than that, Connor seems to have weaned himself off the breast! A few days ago(maybe a week -time is a blur) I started pumping the breast milk & letting DH feed it to him in a bottle. Well, Connor LOVES the bottle. He slurps down 4-5 oz without really spitting up or anything. I had to start supplementing with formula. Now when I try to breast feed, he'll stay on for 30 minutes or so, not really eating & then still want a full bottle of formula. To tell you the truth, I've not been that crazy about the BF anyway but still expected to do it for another month or so. Well, I think he's made the decision for me. Time to take my boobs back for myself and start enjoying a coffee in the mornings. BUT even though he seems to be fine with that decision and I'm fine with it -every decision I make now seems scary on some level. I'm normally a pretty decisive person, but you know "what if I'm making a decision that will screw up my kid for life???" It's funny how everything changes when you're the mommy. Lack of sleep doesn't help either -I feel about as dumb as Homer Simpson most of the time now.

Anyway, I hope everyone is doing well. CONGRATS Michelle on the baby!!
Take care,
Rebecca
Image

2 IVF's & 2 FET -all BFN
3rd IVF -BFP!!!
2ndtimer
Regular
 
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:29 pm

Postby seltzer » Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:18 am

Hi everyone,

Ugh ugh ugh...I am so tired and depressed about the BF situation. I have read everyone's posts but I am such an exhausted wreck I cannot even remember what I need to reply to. So, if I haven't replied to someone, please forgive me and know that I am just a mess. Still having problems w/the BFing. Keira cannot "transfer milk" from the breast effectively, meaning I have enough but she cannot get it out. It is so frustrating and depressing and sad. I am seeing a lactation consultant, who thinks she will improve with time. Meantime I'm pumping and trying to keep my milk supply up while (hopefully) she works on her technique. Most days lately I've just cried and cried...I feel so depleted and hopeless but I am trying to hang in there. Other than these problems, Keira is doing great and packing on the lbs. I on the other hand look like a Mack truck ran me over, LOL. I swear I have never looked this bad in my life! How's is everyone's weight loss going? Mine's OK but I still feel fat as a house. I am not going to weigh myself until my 6-wk OB visit. I still haven't exercised since the OB told me I can't until then. How does everyone's bellies look? Do you guys think there is hope to get the abdomen back into shape? Aside from fixing my BFing issues, this is my most urgent issue. Gotta run...am so tired my brain is malfunctioning.
Me - 41; DP - 43
8/2/08 - Keira Grace born
12/10/06 - Nathaniel Paul born
Image
seltzer
Regular
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:28 pm
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby 2ndtimer » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:45 pm

I started last night with the situps -well, tried to do at least one situp & wasn't able to. I was hoping it would help my back. It's going to be a long road to get the abdomen back. I'm mostly focusing on belly breathing & gentle yoga poses. my goal is to be able to join a pilates course by october.
Dont' hate me but I'm only about 5 lbs off the pre preg weight. but, I also look like crap. seltzer, you're not the only one. hair/skin -blah.... it's the sleep deprivation.
oh well, it could be worse, my neighbors house caught fire last night from lightening.

rebecca
Image

2 IVF's & 2 FET -all BFN
3rd IVF -BFP!!!
2ndtimer
Regular
 
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:29 pm

Postby tinaO » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:36 pm

Hello all! Just chilling out while my husband and Noah take a nap. I have to admit that having my husband just finishing school and being able to stay at home with me right now has been a HUGE blessing. I can't imagine trying to do this all on my own. We both get up with Noah during the night for feedings and to be honest, we have done a lot of just sitting in the partially dark rooms talking while we wait for Noah to go back to sleep. It has been a very special time. The only thing I feel bad about is that he will get up with him like this morning at 6 a.m. and just keep him with him until like 9 a.m. or so and then come wake me. It makes me feel bad because he is getting less sleep but he does so much better without sleep than I do. I know I am lucky in thaqt regard though to have him doing so much. My husband is actively looking for a job now, so all that might change soon.

As far as the breastfeeding thing, nothing has worked and I believe it just was not meant to be for me. I have really accepted it for the most part now although I continue to take the supplements in hopes something might change. However, the breast pump clearly shows I am not making any progress. Oh well - nothing I can do to change it.....

As far as the weight loss thing, I have lost 21 pounds in the 12 days since Noah arrived. So, I have another 15 pounds to go. However, I have already been walking a couple of times and went out for about 1 1/2 miles the other night. It felt great!! I am starting to do some crunches and a few arm weights. I gained the most out of all of us, so I figured I would have to work to get the total gain of 35-37 pounds off and I am ok with that. Thankfully, I did not have a c-section as I know that would make it much harder. For those of you that did, try to take it easy as you will be back at it soon enough. I just wish my clothes would fit again. I miss looking cute! :lol: I feel pretty pale and yucky most of the time lately, but I know that will change soon enough. Slowly, I see my old self starting to emerge. It also appears my back is getting much better. I honestly thought it wouldn't do so on its own, but it does appear to be doing that thankfully. I would do anything to be rid of this pain once and for all.

We go back for Noah's 2 week check-up tomorrow. I am curious about his weight gain. Have any of you been taking your babies out yet anywhere besides doc appts? My college roommate and her husband and little boy are coming in next weekend to spend it with us and I thought about taking Noah with us to dinner. What do you think? Too soon? I just don't know. He has had TONS of visitors since we have been home, so I don't know how this would be any different. Yesterday my roommate from graduate school came over with her sister, mom, husband and 2 kids and brought Noah ALL THIS STUFF. I mean, sheets, blankets, and lost of clothes. They are all about style so you should have seen the load they brought - including a Juicy Couture for boys onesie!!! I cracked up.

How are everyone's kiddos sleeping? Noah seems to change every night. We have him sleeping in his bouncy chair right now as he won't sleep in his bassinet, much less his crib. However, the other night all he wanted was to be held so my husband ended up sleeping with him on the couch for a few hours and then I had him in the bed with us for a couple of hours (which I know is TERRIBLE!). I don't know. Every day appears to be a different story. Would love to hear what you are all experiencing.

Seltzer - Don't beat yourself up right now! It will get better! As far as the weight loss thing, I thought it would bother me much more than it has. I just feel like it will come with time. My stomach looks like a bowl of jelly though and I shook it for my husband the other night and cracked myself up. Perhaps I should keep those things to myself as he didn't exactly look like he wanted to jump my bones after that! :lol: I think we will get our stomachs back - it just seems far fetched right now. The rest of me is moving along ok as I did not gain it anywhere else except mainly the stomach, and some butt and hips. But man - I was one gigantic stomach!!!

Karen - what have you done about your circumcision question? I asked my grad school roommate yesterday about it and she said her son't actually did grow back partly and that the doc said they should have been pushing it down often of which she had never been told - me either!! Needless to say, we are talking to the pediatrician about it tomorrow. Noah's is better now. Those little patches on it have disappeared so from my research, it does appear those are just normal healing patches.

Rebecca - Yep - the joys of nipple confusion! As soon as Noah got the bottle, he really wanted nothing to do with the breast. Too much work for him! It is funny and sad at the same time sometimes now when he tries to go after my breast because I kind of look at him like, "Oh - now you want some of that"??? Unfortunately, there was not much ever coming out so I can't blame him for not wanting it. Oh well. I am just glad we recognized the signs early and kept him out of the hospital from serious dehydration by giving him formula. I know what you mean about every decision seeming like this HUGE one and not wanting to make the wrong one...

Take care all and hang in there!!!

Tina
Me - 40; DH - 42
2 IUI's-BFN
1st IVF: BFP
Noah was born 8/20/08; he's our world!
Started FET 7/11
Only 1 frozen to transfer - praying for another miracle!!!
[url=http://www.TickerFactory.com/]
Image
[/url]
tinaO
Regular
 
Posts: 463
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:39 pm
Location: Texas, United States

Postby tryw8 » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:46 am

Hi All,

Hope everyone had a wonderful Labor Day weekend. I'm patiently waiting for Cody to go to sleep. I need to clip his fingernails. I think I've been trimming them every two days otherwise he digs into our skin when he grabs.

My DH goes back to work tomorrow. Then it's just Cody and I. My mom may stop in to check in on us. Cody has "dandruff". He had dry skin. Sometimes, it look likes he has acne. Others, it looks like a heat-rash. His skin is just getting used to the environment. It's different for him since he was inside me for 9 months.

Tina - as for my circumcision question, I found out two weeks after Cody's two week appt w/ the pediatrician that I was supposed to be pushing it back also. It didn't come from the pediatrician either. My sister-in-law told me so. So, since then, I've been pushing it back each time I do a diaper change. Although, DH doesn't ... even though I've told him many times. I just gave up on him. I'm still worried, though. Cody doesn't see his pediatrician until 9/12. So I have to wait until then.

I'll write more later when I can.

Karen
Failed IUI
hysteroscopy/laparoscopy 1/07 (blocked tube,endo)
IVF 5/07 BFN
FET 11/07, BFP 12/07
07/31/2008 (508am) --> our son was born!

Image
tryw8
Regular
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:24 pm

Postby tinaO » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:10 am

Hello all! Quick post from me - poor little Noah had terrible gas last night and wow - I don't know how people do it with babies that cry all the time with colic. It was terrible. Noah is normally very, very calm, but last night he was fussy for a few hours straight and it freaked us out. Poor thing just had terrible gas. But thankfully, he went to bed around 1 a.m. and slept until 4 a.m and then ate. Then went back to bed and slept until 8:30 a.m. Whew. He is back to normal today. His poop was a little thick this morning, so I think maybe he was slightly constipated. I read that if you "bicycle" their legs that it helps relieve gas - worked VERY well if you ever need to try it. It helped to loosen things up for him. I am lucky that my husband is still doing so much and taking care of Noah so much. I could not do it without him. Our pool is finally done and I actually sat out by it and got a little tan today while my husband was inside with Noah. It was wonderful. We have had so many friends bringing us food that it has really, really helped also. Some days I go all day without eating....much different than the quart of ice cream I was downing at the end of pregnancy!! :lol: :lol: I still miss sleep and yesterday I had to run out to Babies R Us and a couple of other places and I stopped at Old Navy to grab some shorts. OMG!!! I grab all these shorts in a size that I thought for sure was going to be too big and it was TOO SMALL!!! UGGGHHHH!!!! I walked 2 miles tonight and did crunches. I cannot deal with this weight any longer. I feel gross. How is everyone else doing with the weight thing now? Guess it will just take some time....

Noah's little cord fell off last night. It was so weird. But geez - his little belly button looks so cute now!! I will post another pic or two of him now. I just love him to pieces. He is just such a sweetie. Can you imagine life without them now????

We went to the pediatrician yesterday and Noah is finally gaining weight. He is up to 7 pounds and 8 oz (he was 7'3 at birth), so we are on the right track now with the formula. I loved our pediatrician. He made me feel so good about the breastfeeding thing and told me his wife is also a doctor and they ended up feeding their 2nd child formula. He made me feel so much better. I truly am done being upset over the breastfeeding thing. It just wasn't meant to be for me.

Ok, better run. I hope you are all doing ok. Best advice someone gave me is that every day is different with a newborn. If today was bad, chances are tomorrow will be totally different. Thankfully that was the case with us today.....

Tina
Me - 40; DH - 42
2 IUI's-BFN
1st IVF: BFP
Noah was born 8/20/08; he's our world!
Started FET 7/11
Only 1 frozen to transfer - praying for another miracle!!!
[url=http://www.TickerFactory.com/]
Image
[/url]
tinaO
Regular
 
Posts: 463
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:39 pm
Location: Texas, United States

Postby seltzer » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:31 pm

Hey everyone,

Life is hectic with a newborn! we went to the pedi yesterday, and Keira weighs 8 lbs., 10 oz.! She gained 13 oz. in one week. She is getting so heavy, LOL. I am still breastfeeding and pumping and supplementing (mostly w/breast milk). Long story short things have not gotten better w/her feeding. We went to see a tongue tie specialist yesterday, who was great. She confirmed that Keira has a posterior tongue tie that is interfering w/her ability to BF. It can't be snipped right in the office as some of them can. So my only option at this point is to pump & give her BM out of the bottle & "comfort nurse" her when she needs/wants it. So for now that's my plan, pumping every 3 hours. I am sad about it, but happy that we are finally reaching an understanding of the problem and some sort of resolution. The pedi said she looks wonderful, very healthy, so TG for that. She is a very sweet girl! :)

Tina - I hear you on the weight issues! OMG. I went shopping the other day for some fat pants (or "transition pants," as DP calls them...LOL) and the same thing happened to me. I grabbed some that I thought would be too big & they were too freakin' small. Pregnancy has distorted my body image! I am now officially 2 sizes bigger than I was before pregnancy. Lovely. AGH!! I could not believe the layers of lard on my BACK and BUTT! Those full length mirrors are not good. Well, I am cutting back on my caloric intake and trying to squeeze in some walks. I really feel like a cow (in more ways than one). Glad to hear Noah is doing so well & that you've resolved the feeding issues. The most important thing is getting to a place you feel good about so you can enjoy your baby. JMHO.

DP and I haven't been getting along so great from time to time...this really sucks. There have been a lot of tears on my end due to my inability to cope w/any extra stress and heartache. Sometimes I just want to bash her head against a wall, God forgive me. She can be so self-centered. She is a true Gemini. Anyway. Gotta run. Take care everyone. :)
Me - 41; DP - 43
8/2/08 - Keira Grace born
12/10/06 - Nathaniel Paul born
Image
seltzer
Regular
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:28 pm
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby sharishu » Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:04 am

Hi ladies,
TG, everything is well with little Elia. He is just as sweet as anything. I am over the pneumonia, but am now battling postpartum sadness/depression. I guess my mom, husband, and sister have been giving me lots of breaks while I was sick (especially when I was contagious and afraid to get near the baby). Now that I am on my own during the day (my family has gone back to the states), I am feeling so overwhelmed and even afraid that I will do something wrong. It's such an all-encompassing life change, which I knew it would be, but living it is not easy for me. It's really getting me down, and I don't have much of an appetite. I have a follow up appointment with my GP, and I will mention it to him. I just want to feel better.

Tina- I am so happy for you that you and your husband are connecting so well. Me and dh have had some rough spots, especially when he had to take care of me and the baby, and run all the errands. It was too much for him and he started cracking. Glad it's going smoothly on your end.

Seltzer- I can relate to the rough spots relationship wise. Being our first baby, I don't think we realized just how tired and drained we'd be. We are beginning to communicate and connect more effectively. I think it's absolutely normal, and it just takes time.

Well, I finally got the baby down for a mid-morning nap, after a 'kvetchy' morning. Time to breeeeathe.

Be well.
Shari
Damaged Tubes; 1st IVF- BFN; 2nd IVF-BFP, our precious son :); 3rd IVF stopped due to natural miracle BFP, then mc@8 wks.; 4th IVF: June '11- BFN :( Bring On IVF#4!

Image[img]
sharishu
Regular
 
Posts: 538
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:32 am
Location: Israel, moved 6 years ago (+-) from NYC

Postby seltzer » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:28 am

Hi Shari - I just read your post & am really sorry to see you are struggling emotionally. Please know that you are NOT alone. Right after I delivered, for about a week or so, I felt extremely teary and anxious and intermittently depressed. I was filled with fear and constantly worried I was going to do something wrong in terms of the baby (like I would drop her, not take care of her right, etc.). I was terrified and I didn't want anyone near her for fear they would hurt her by accident. This kind of passed after a week or so, but then the BF issues began and since then I've been struggling in a different way (less fear but more depression and hopelessness). I have such a hard time doing the basics, like getting up for the day. I am talking to my OB on Monday and probably going on an antidepressant. Not to blab on and on about this, but I just want you to know that you aren't the only one. It's a very isolating and scary experience to be taking care of a newborn. Since your family just left it's no wonder you are having a hard time. can you talk to your OB about this? Maybe taking something for a short while would give you the lift you need. Add pneumonia into the mix and it's no wonder you are depressed. It WILL get better. Just hang in there and remember this is the really hard part. As the baby gets bigger over the next few weeks and you are physically stronger things will improve. Keep posting here, too, because being isolated just makes things worse. Hang in there and remember you are not alone. We are all here for you. Also, remember that Elia loves you...you are his mother. Don't worry so much about doing something wrong as a parent. All Elia wants and needs is for you to be there for him--to love him, feed him, hold him. He is not expecting some superhuman parenting from you. Just do the basics, which you are, and you will be doing a fantastic job! :)
Me - 41; DP - 43
8/2/08 - Keira Grace born
12/10/06 - Nathaniel Paul born
Image
seltzer
Regular
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:28 pm
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby seltzer » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:31 am

Shari - Did I mention how adorable Elia is?! OMG, he is so cute!
Me - 41; DP - 43
8/2/08 - Keira Grace born
12/10/06 - Nathaniel Paul born
Image
seltzer
Regular
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:28 pm
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby tinaO » Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:13 am

Shari/Seltzer - Hi! Sorry to hear of your troubles, but man - just about every woman I know has suffered from post-partum depression so I totally recommend getting on something to help you. I know these hormones can make you crazy and if it were not for my husband being such a huge help right now - I would go crazy! It just seems like some days that the whole day flies by and it is over...well, and what did I accomplish? Noah has been getting TONS of gifts lately from friends, co-workers of mine, clients of mine, etc - I cannot keep up with the thank you notes and that alone is stressing me out. I love the gifts but it adds one more thing on my "to-do"list. That seems stupid, huh? It is not like I am not grateful, but you know...

I am honestly amazed that my husband wants to help as much as he does. He got upset the other day because he did not feel like I was letting him help enough. HUH??? Hopefully this lasts forever. I have a good friend whose husband does NOTHING to help her. I feel so sorry for her. Every time she confronts him about it he starts screaming and breaks things!!

Ok, I need to go. My college roommate was here all weekend with her husband and son and we spent yesterday watching football, drinking beer (Ah - it was SOOOO good - although I only have 1 1/2 and thought I would pass out!!!) and laying out by the pool. It was nice, but now I have stuff to catch up on and the day is once again almost over!! We took Noah to dinner with us Friday night - his first outing other than the doc's office. He slept through the whole thing!!! It was nice, though. But I was so scared!!!

Hang in there. It all does get better. Ask for help if you need it. Demand it if you have to!!! Pamper yourself when you can. And just try to relax. Our babies all have mothers who love them very much. We are blessed.

Take care ladies!!!
Me - 40; DH - 42
2 IUI's-BFN
1st IVF: BFP
Noah was born 8/20/08; he's our world!
Started FET 7/11
Only 1 frozen to transfer - praying for another miracle!!!
[url=http://www.TickerFactory.com/]
Image
[/url]
tinaO
Regular
 
Posts: 463
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:39 pm
Location: Texas, United States

Postby sharishu » Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:26 am

Seltzer-
Thanks! Your words of encouragement went a long way in validating my feelings. I have all these irrational fears that I'll do something wrong with the baby. So I spoke to my GP, and he prescribed something for me to take. He said it takes 2 weeks to kick in, so I'm waiting for now. I am exhausted, so when the baby sleeps, I sleep. My dh told me that I should just rest whenever I can, so I don't feel too bad about it. I just want to be a good mom! (and to feel better). Hope you are feeling better as well. You sound like a real trouper with the BF issue. I have stopped completely since the doctor also prescribed Xanax to help me in the meantime, and he said by no means to nurse while taking it.

Tina-
Thanks to you, too. It's good to know I'm not the only one experiencing PPD! As far as taking him to dinner and being afraid, I totally relate! We took the baby to a dinner with our new neighbors, and I was PETRIFIED that he'd be screaming the whole time. Meanwhile, he slept the whole time, and it was the other babies there who howled and carried on. I'm even scared to take him out by myself with the stroller, or better yet, get the stroller into the car. I'm sure it'll become like second nature with time, but for now, I'm in a panic just thinking about it.

Thanks again for your support, guys. Have a great day.

Shari
Damaged Tubes; 1st IVF- BFN; 2nd IVF-BFP, our precious son :); 3rd IVF stopped due to natural miracle BFP, then mc@8 wks.; 4th IVF: June '11- BFN :( Bring On IVF#4!

Image[img]
sharishu
Regular
 
Posts: 538
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:32 am
Location: Israel, moved 6 years ago (+-) from NYC

PreviousNext

Return to Pregnant after treatment

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 2 guests