The Over 40 Crowd

[taylorjools]

Hi Ladies
I have missed you all, spent most of this evening catching up. Caroline you must be so proud of your 15 eggs well done you. I do hope you had some nice embies and that ET went well. Will send some nice implantation imp vibes in your general direction....

Debbie - good luck with the sniffing.

Randa - picked up in various places about your wedding - sounds super - when are you starting again - soon oder??

It's so hard keeping a +ve mental attitude through all this, but it does work, and we can get pg we know it so keep believing girls. We have an appt at the uni in Kiel (new clinic in Germany for us) who are supposed to be quite advanced and have offered to review the m/c with us to eliminate any obvious issues like uNKC, blood flow etc. They are also going to have a good look at dh sperm just in case. Dh is of course now on multi spuer vits, so hopefully things will get slowly better for us. I do hope this clinic will offer us some good support as we do need a partner clinic here in Germany, our local hospital was very good when I m/c'd but they were stuck at the limit of their knowledge for what went wrong (donor eggs are illegal here in case anyone reading this doesn't know so we have to go abroad).

We are toying with the idea of going to Kiev in September (Joy went there) as it is significantly cheaper than IM and has a good success rate. It also depends on the test results I guess. We are accepting that we may need a few goes, and want to make sure we can afford it. I wish we could just go back to IM but I don't think we can make it. Emotionally of course it's another road. My therapist is a brick and has done sessions for me and dh. I still cry a lot and am deeply sad. I dont think I have ever been so happy as the weekend we saw the heartbeat, and I don't think I have been sadder than now.

Thank you all so much for being there when I needed you

Love to you all

bigJ

[cmg]

Hi Girls

Big J lovely to see you back on the board and starting to sound positive, after your recent trauma. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to get a positive result and then lose the baby, so much harder than just a BFN in the first place, so it's great that you are able to start looking forward. I hope all the tests at the Uni give some clues about the m/c so it can be avoided next time.

Good luck with your research into new clinics. I don't want to worry you, but over here there has been some quite disturbing stuff in the press lately about Eastern European girls being paid quite large sums to donate eggs without really understanding the risks or what they were doing. I read one awful case about a girl who was only about 19 who donated eggs to pay for her wedding and ended up infertile after some life threatening complications. That was in Romania. The Ukraine, of course, is a completely different country and might be much better, but it could be worth checking out where they get their donor eggs from and how they look after their donors. I think that when women are donating their eggs because they are poor (and that's certainly why it happens in some countries) rather than as part of egg sharing or sheer altruism, then there's a whole extra set of issues to think about to ensure they're not exploited. Sorry if I sound like I'm preaching but it really upset me when I read some of these stories and from the very little I know of you, you don't sound to me like the kind of person who'd want your happiness to be on the back of someone else. I guess it's about having the same kind of safeguards that come with adopting from poorer countries.

Debbie I hope the sniffing is going ok and not getting too tiresome. Have you started stimming yet or are you waiting for AF? I found the down regging bit quite dull, as after the excitement of "ooh I've started" nothing really happens! Still won't be long now til it all starts happening.

Randa I somehow missed the bits about your wedding but hope it was fab. Bet it took your mind off the IVF for a while.

Thank you for your congrats on my 15 eggs. I was, indeed, very proud of myself! As a very last minute decision, we decided to go for ICSI (they spotted that too many of DH's sperm had 2 heads or were in some other way mutant) and I was really glad we did. All 15 eggs were good enough to be ICSI'd but only 8 fertilised. I suspect that would have been lower with conventional IVF so it seemed like a good decision. We had 5 that were of really good quality. They put back the 3 best ones and we've got 2 frosties which had come up to scratch overnight (ET was day 2 but they freeze on day 3), so I cannot believe my luck. Given that we've said we're never doing this again, this is the best possible outcome that we could have hoped for and I'm starting to feel quite excited. I test next Thurs (14th).

Anyway, this post seems to be going on forever, so I'll stop now.

love Caroline

[taylorjools]

Best of luck to you Caroline

There is nothing I would do to harm any one, I just have no eggs so I have to try and trust the clinic I choose to follow an ethical code, that is the case in the Ukraine as they follow US and EU standards. That is also the case in Spain. I have NO patience with the assumption that "the UK is ethical and perfect and everywhere else is dangerous or unethical". That is a very uniformed and naive opinion. The British private medical community (and the German) have a vested interest in discrediting other countries for medical treatment, it threatens their swimming pools and also the mega profits that the drug companies cream off. I would like to see an article on how many couples have bankrupted themselves with no results at incompetent UK clinics. How many women have been harmed by incomepetent IVF tmt at UK clinics. If I let the press terrorise me I would have to accept childlessness. Maybe that would suit Britishsociety and I should join the brigade of old maids?

Grr
bigJ

[cmg]

Big J, sweetie, I've obviously hit a raw nerve here and didn't intend to at all. It was just some information I thought you would need when weighing up which clinic to use.

As it happens I have seen quite a few articles in the UK press about the fact that infertility is the most lucrative branch of private medicine after plastic surgery and that some people are making fortunes on the back of people's desperation. There are also plenty of horror stories of IVF gone wrong. The day after EC last week, I lay in bed listening to an item on Woman's Hour in very graphic detail about the horrors of OHSS, which believe me was not well timed! Having almost died during IVF last year I have no doubt I'd have found a home for that story had I chosen to go public with it. I don't think the media have a vested interested in keeping UK clinics going (UK clinics do, of course) and in fact some of the criticism was of UK clinics which had set up franchises in other countries. They may sensationalise, they may pick the worst possible case and present it as typical, but I don't think they pull these things out of thin air.

It's not a question of UK good, everywhere else bad and I would not be particularly surprised to see Western companies (cos that's what many clinics are) applying different standards in other parts of the world from the ones they operate at home. Women are not queuing up to donate eggs in the UK, so the issues never arise. In the US women sell their eggs to put themselves through college and there was a bit of a furore over here a few years ago when a couple of British girls went over to the States to do it so they could pay off their student loans. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that at all, so long as they are making an informed decision, understand the risks and are treated well. I think that's what we should expect in any country where women donate eggs, but sadly there are going to be places where people are exploited and not treated well. There's always a trade in rare, precious commodities (kidneys, babies), there are always ruthless people wanting to make money from it and desperate people waiting to be exploited. I don't think we can pretend that the same is not going to be true of human eggs (and embryos).

Big J, I can see the issue has unsettled you and it really wasn't my intention to upset you. But if I was using donor eggs, I would want to know about this and I kind of assumed you would too. We are always searching for and sharing information on these boards so we're better informed about what we're doing. I don't think it's any less valid to do that when the information in unpalatable.

It must be really hard facing the fact that donor eggs are your only option and I really feel for you. But there are many clinics out there who meet all the right ethical standards where you can get your eggs. I hope you find that the Kiev clinic is one of them.

We are all in this situation together and, realistically, some of us will have to accept childlessness in the end. I've got this go, 2 frosties saved up and then that's it. End of the road; we're not doing it again. I would be very sad, but I doubt that the media or British society would give a monkey's either way. They're not terrorising you and honestly, Big J, neither am I.

I really, really hope that you find a clinic you're happy with and that your next cycle is successful. You deserve it after all you've been through. Keep strong.

love Caroline

[taylorjools]

Hey Caroline, thank you so much for your sensitive post, you did hit a raw nerve, but not you personally just what you reported..

You know that the worst press calls IVF designer babies, I even had a (bad) therapist tell me I was "playing God" by using donor eggs (because it is for nobody knows what reason illegal here although donor sperm isn't...). You are totally right, of course I wouldn't wnat donor eggs from an exploited woman, no more than I would want to adopt a child from a woman who loved her baby but couldn't afford to keep it..and would regret it the rest of her life.

I get angry because of manipulative and sensational press, affluent private medicine and igonorant public. I think we all do, and we are all dealing with the pressure of not complying with "societal norms", by definition we all have mothers who concieved naturally for eg.

I feel we paid far too much for what we actually got and am just researching other possibilities,

don't worry, I am fine, and you are sweet

Love and hugs and best wishes

bigJ

[DeniseM]

Big J, just thinking on what you wrote. If a woman was pressured to give up her baby, then it would be unethical. But a woman who knows that she cannot afford to raise a child and give it what it needs, it can be an act of love to give that child up.

Some of the kids having kids in the highschool I work in would maybe be better off by having their babies adopted.

I wish you all the luck in the world with your choice of clinic. And knowing you have the resources and love to give that baby makes it all worth while.

Hugs.

[taylorjools]

very valid comment Denise

love bigJ

[cmg]

Thanks Big J, I was worried I'd upset you. I think the press give all kind of mixed messages about IVF, some positive, some not, cos they've got no fixed position on it, but I agree there is a tendency to sensationalise. I'm sorry if you've been hurt in the past by insensitive media coverage but with them it's not personal. However, I'm kind of outraged that a therapist would be that judgemental to you. It's their job to be impartial!

BTW if you think German IVF laws are tough, you should try Italy, whose laws are just bonkers. No matter how many eggs you have, you can only use 3 and you have to put them all back.

Anyhow, I'm sure you'll make a sound choice of clinic and I wish you well with it.

Caroline

[debbieed]

Hello All,
I guess the posts on here at the moment have been pretty emotional. I think that the media has a lot to answer for in the way that it uses information and gives it whatever spin they think will make the most money. I know that there are many people in the world that are exploited and all we can do is to try not to support people that are making a profit out of others misfortune. I am also sure that there are many people who do donate things (blood, sperm, eggs etc) for truly good reasons. I guess if we try to find out facts and base our choices on that they we are doing what we can. However, we do have to accept that we may think we have 'facts' when we don't. We can't really do anything about that.

All of us on this board are here because we are desperate to have a child. For many of us this will mean making difficult decisions. We all need to support each other through these decisions and accept the fact that some of us will make different choices. Whatever choice we make we have to live with it and it will be right for us.

Take care all.

Love

Debbie

[taylorjools]

Hi girls

yes, Debbie, a good conversation, would have loved to have had that round a table with a bottle of wine, we'd have all ended up in a mega hug I am sure.

Caroline - Italy sounds really potty. tell you what, this poor wonderful consultant we saw today, came back from the mega conference in Copenhagen and isn't allowed to provide DE services, only diagnosis and "advice" in Germnay, not even support suring my tmt and Kiel is one of the leading clinics for infertility in Germany. He was so super, he gave us a whole hour - all on our normal insurance - a first for us, even where we pay!! He was totally up to date, had et the ivi Valencia guys (they are the biggest IVF factory in Europe as I have heard them described) but he did have a pont, they do 3000 cycles a year so they have experience..

Good job we have a wonderful gynea who does all the scans "under cover" she has been marvellous, basicallt they just treat(ed) me like a normal pg.

The question is how far do you go?? we are too old for adoption (35 in Germany) so we have to give it our best shot. As blikey said to us today, keep at it........

Love and hugs to all 40++ es

bigJ

[Kat]

Hi, just thought I'd say hello & let you know I am now officially qualified to be on the 40+. Had a lovely birthday yesterday and wasn't going to let Thursday's events change my plans at all - me & DH went into Central London for dinner then to see The Lion King, which was fantastic, and then stayed the night (we live close enough to come home afterwards but decided to make a night of it). It was quiet up there for this time of year, unsurprisingly.
Feeling a bit in limbo ivf-wise at the moment but Sept will come round v soon I am sure...
Lots of love, Kat xx

[taylorjools]

Nice to hear from you Kat and good for you - I have been thinking of you all in the UK for the past couple of days.

Hey lady - you should be soooo excited, you are at IM on 1st September of my memory is right, meeting George and the gang..you'll be great sweetie, no sweat, their success rates are so high..

Have you got dh on the super sperm plan????? We know that that's the only bit we can control, so my dh is so healthy he could spit we are doing a spermiogram next week to have a look at the difference, and another in Sept before e try again.. it's so important. Patrick Holford says 80% of "incidental" genetic defects in the embryo (he means apart from hereditary ones) are due to damaged / inadequate sperm...

We had a good day, super summer so far weather wise so we hit the doggie beach today, took Nushi whos just finished her first "period" poor sweetie, all the boyz wanted to play anyway....lots of sand in our eyes we are so lucky to live here, one of the few good decisions I made in my life, we are on hioliday all summer...

Love and hugs to all

bigJ

[cmg]

Big J, you sound like you've got fantastic consultants in Kiel who are prepared to be really pragmatic. Must be incredibly frustrating for you and for them that they can't go on and treat you. Crazy laws!

Kat, hello and welcome to the over 40+ club. 40's ok really - I'm not looking forward to 45, though. I don't think there's any getting away from accepting you're middle aged then! Glad you managed to enjoy your birthday despite the best efforts of fanatics. Will we get off on completely the wrong foot if I tell you I didn't like the Lion King! Only went as a treat for my MiL. Not a big fan of musicals, in general though. Good luck for Sept.

Debbie, makes a lot of sense, what you say. In the end we all have to make decisions that we feel comfortable with. How are things going with you BTW? I've lost track of where you are.

Hi to everyone else

Caroline

[Katie12563]

YES YES YES...I would love a thread for US!!! I don't know what my number is but the doctor said my levels were normal for my age and with no blocked tubes we did IUI and I became pregnant on 1st attempt.

I missed miscarried at 6W5Ds and I'm so afraid of it happening again.
It was a chromsome issue(triple 16) that is common to older mothers my doctor reported (embryo tissue was tested after DNC).

I live in fear that my next round (IUI)will be negative or end the same way. Because it was horrible to tell my family that I miscarried I feel that next time I will need to keep it to myself until I start showing. It's horrible to go through this alone (I'm single and used donor sperm). I also feel ashamed..that I lost my baby...too old to try???? Sorry I'm so negative. I'm hurting.... my doctor says we must keep trying ASAP.

Are any of you considering embryo donation/adoption????
My clinic has 4 embryos that would be a perfect match for me but the preg & live birth rate for this is low and some don't make it through the thawing process. If my eggs don't work I'm thinking of this as my next option. It will also be less expensive than donor eggs.

[cmg]

Katie

welcome to the 40+ club. I'm so sorry to hear about what a sad time you've had. I think you're incredibly brave to go through this on your own and hope that you have supportive friends and family around you.

There are risks to trying when we're older. This is the first proper attempt I've had and I'm 43, so I know that things could go wrong. But it's also true that women do have perfectly healthy babies at our age so I think it's a risk worth taking.

I don't have any information about donor embryos, I'm afraid.

Good luck when you decide to try again but make sure you give yourself time to grieve and recover from your last experience. It hasn't been that long.

Caroline