ARCG in London. How feasible...

[Corinna]

Hi all.

I have just had my first ICSI at Care in Manchester. I found them to be friendly & professional. Unfortunately, I got a BFN.

I have 3 frosties left which we are planning to use in Oct.

Our fertility issues are DH has azoospermia (though they managed to find a few tiddlers for last ICSI cycle) and I have no tubes due to 2 ectopics 6 years ago. I have a 13 year old DD from a previous relationship. The last ICSI cycle seemed to go very well in the fact that both embies were grade 1 and my womb lining was nice & thick, etc.. The little embies just chose not to stcik around..

Anyway, DH & I have spoke about how many attemtps at ICSI we can realistically afford to do. We have agreed that we will have a go with our frosties later this year and go for 1 more fresh attempt at our current clinic in Manchester in the FET doesn't work. I would also like to have 1 last go at the ARGC in London.

I live in Manchester so travelling to London would take about 2 hours.

I have heard that the tmt at the ARGC is very time consuming (daily blood tests, etc) & I'm wondering whether a tmt cycle at the ARGC is actually feasible. We just assumed that we would have to travel down to London for stimms scans, etc (which were every other day at Manchester). Not everyday!! Also, how many preliminary tests do they do at the ARGC before you can start tmt??

Sorry to ask so many questions. The ARGC has, by far, the best success rate in the UK so I REALLY want to give it a go (hopefully I won;t need to tho ).

Lots of love, Corinna xx

[Kate21]

Hi Corinna,

A friend of mine did a tmt at ARGC a few months ago. I think all told she said it cost them about £12,000 for one IVF cycle!! She had to go in daily for blood tests during the first week and then the second week of stimming she had to go in twice a day, once in the morning and then again in the afternoon. They did this so they could change the amount of drugs for the following day.

She said the tmt and staff were excellent but obviously very time consuming, more so than normal. They also did loads and loads of tests before they would allow her to start tmt, they tested her for everything including NKC and checked out her womb, size, shape etc.

Unfortunately she got a BFN, but there were lots of girls there with success stories, after 7 failed attepmts and then coming to ARGC and getting a BFP. I think you need to look at whether you have the money and whether you can manage the amount of time you have to spend there.

Hope this helps?
Kate

[gbnut]

HI corrina

I am at ARGC at the moment and i find them very friendly but the clinic is very busy.

I am on the 2ww which is actually only 10 days as they took my embryios to blast which gives them a better chance.

It is costly however you can cut cost with having hisosopie before hand and get your pre blood tests and sperm count done by your GP. we only had to go for initial interview and one scan before you start. when on downers you are not there that much just day 6 scan and then you have to go everyday when on stimms for the begging and then twice a day if you have high levels in the second week.

Have you been tested for immune problems at Manchester. If not i would ask for themto do that prior to having your FET. i was told that i would never get a BFP without the treatment i have had for my immune syetem. Your hospital might do this for you or another clinic might do it for you prior to having your FET.

If you have any questions please ask . I am very busy getting bored with my feet up!!!!!!

Susan x

[AMck]

Susan, hi, I too am on my 2ww and slowly climbing the walls! Could I ask you about the immune tests you had? I asked my clinic about them but they weren't too forthcoming. Said they wouldn't do them until I had a BFN. As I never got to EC with them I never got round to getting them done. I went for donor egg tmt abroad and got a BFN so I asked my GP, whose specialism is IVF , and she also wasn't too keen to put me forward for them. What do these tests involve and if they find anything can it be rectified?

Thanks for your time!

Anna x

[lolajones]

hello ladies.

The ARGC is the stuff of legend in our IVF world!
I too looked at the success rates and was very impressed.
I've talked to several experts about the clinic and looked at various papers, stats etc. In my opinion, the clinic is no better than most other london clinics. The amazing figures are manipulated and the science behind the whole "immunological problem" is a bit iffy.
Also, in the vast majority of cases there is absolutely no need to be tested every day/twice a day during a cycle, its just a money spinner and does not change the outcome. I know several women who have been there and they have all been pushed to do IVF without other options even being discussed.
The ARGC is good, but it isn't as good as it advertises. Obviously, this is just my opinion, don't want to irk anyone

Anna - good luck!! I'm praying you get your bfp! You so deserve it!!

Susan - you too! Hope your 2ww speeds by to a massive BFP!

Corrina - good luck with your FET later in the year - I hope everything works out for you.

Take care

Lola
x

[gbnut]

Anna I have sever endometrosis with both tubes closed. I dont know if you know much about endo about they are not 100% of what the cause is but alot of the experts say it is related to the immnune system. I went to ARGC because they specialise in this and they have a lot of connections with USA who are seeminly pioneerning in this field. All that is involved is a blood test. This blood test showed that i had high levels of KC and other areas which means that my immune system is working too hard. It is constantly fighting against my endo which is fast growing. Anyway my body can not tell the diffence between any foreign cell in my body ie between a cell with my husbands dna and my endo so it just fights therefor not only can i not pregnant on my own i can not get pregnant with transfer. The clinic have put me on medication to stop this happening. or at least it is supposed to give me a better chance.

Lola

I disagree with your thoughts on argc. It is actually not them that do the blood tests so they are not the ones getting all the money. Not everyone has to have two blood tests just if there is a need that you might need to change your meds. I was at ST Barts for my first ivf and they did not check my blood as often and my blood went sky high and i had to stop taking all meds and was nearly hospitalised due to my levels. At argc i had to again stop my meds and cruised for three days but they were constantly checking to see if i had to take more meds. P>S you did not irk me i just felt i should report my story.x

Good luck to everyone hears hoping we all get BFP

Susanx

[CarolynB]

Ladies

This is a really interesting thread. I have read so much about ARGC and it is hard to not buy-into the stats which are amazing.

Clearly there are lots of very very different views around ARGC. I spoke personally to one lady who went there and never got to tmt as she said the whole experince was like factory farming & all the vists stressed hre so much that she just pulled out. Way way too busy in her opinion. Felt that you had to give yourself and your cheque book over to them and that was not how she wanted to be treated. She has done 5 ivfs and is now pregnant with twins - harley st fertility centre for last 2 which were both BFPs although she lost the last on at 5 weeks.

Spoke to another lady who was at St Thomas for her first 2 attempts which were both BFNs. She then did 2 tries at ARGC which she felt was much more tailored to her and she did get pregnant on one of the attempts but miscarried the day after she found her dad was dying of cancer. She thinks that ARGC is like 'god' even though it never worked for her.

She told me that you need to count on £10k per cycle. Also been told that you have to be prepared/available to visit everyday. Corinna - think that you would have to consider staying in London for periods otherwise think that travel/stress/visits might just get too much?

I am Hammersmith (Lola is too) and have talked to my consultant about ARGC. He says that ARGC throw everything at 1 attempt usually going to blast to get the stats that they achieve. He believes that you have a better chance with a 2/3 day transfer and setting aside the others for FET and says if we add 1 Fresh + 2 FET and compare to 1 Fresh where you go to Blast then the first would have a better success rate than second but that is not how the stats are put together...........they are all focused on the outcome of the single 1st cycle.

I am with Corinna. I would do another Fresh + FETs at Hammersmith but if that did not work then I think that I would have one go at ARGC. Afraid that if we did not do this then I would think that I had not given it my all.

Don't want to upset anyone just wanted to post what I know about ARGC.

Hoping that you all get the BFPs that you deserve at whatever clinic best suits each of you!!

Love Carolyn xxx

[dancola]

Interesting topic. I'm now at the ARGC after 4 fresh and 2 frozen attempts, all with Holly House. HH were great, got my stimms right, got me to blasto each time with good quality embies, but apart from the first attempt (early m/c) they never stuck. We decided that going to the ARGC was something we just had to do in order to say we tried everything before we consider DE or adoption.

I was - and am - very cynical about the ARGC. I was concerned that they 'cherry picked' in order to get their results, but gather that they consider their niche to be treating women who have tried elsewhere and failed. The fact that they took me on without a murmur is good. I am lucky that I work in London and so far it's OK in terms of getting there. I'm on down-reg and, fingers crossed, go for my 6-day scan/bloods today. Sometime this week I'll have to start daily bloods but they open at 730am so I'm able to get there before work. Like Lola I'm cynical about daily bloods, especially as in my case I respond very well and have the same results each time, but I'm happy to let them do this.

I found it helped to give the ARGC a full, typed list of my treatment to date - drugs, amounts, how I responded etc etc. Especially if this is not your first time there, it helps to give them as much info about you as possible. That way your expensive attempt there is not a dress rehearsal where they are learning about you, but hopefully more a refinement. Knowing that I respond well to 225ml Gonal F, I don't expect them to put me on more than that. Equally, because I always found the Suprecur worked well in down-reg, they let me take that rather than do the sniffing (which I didn't want to do as have nasal problems).

In terms of killer cells, I already knew I had an issue. HH tested me after the 2nd cycle, when I'd then had a m/c followed by BFN. At ARGC the tests get sent to the original hospital that 'discovered' this issue in Chicago and they are very expensive - around £ 800. I gather that treatment differs. I am currently on a steroid, together with baby aspirin, which I started taking from down-reg (at HH only from EC). I don't want to do IVIG (which is v expensive and a pain to do) but I secretly hope I do, simply because I need to see that ARGC are doing something different than HH. So far my tests are fine, FSH is good, everything is going as it should. That's my problem - it went fine at HH too. I'm hoping ARGC will provide that extra tweak, something different that will let the embies stick.

It's a difficult decision going there. It feels like the ultimate commitment in some way because if you don't live close, you will need to take holiday from work (I personally reckon the majority of ARGC girls don't work). I will try as far as I can to work without having to tell them, and when it comes to EC/ET (god willing) will take holiday. It's also very expensive too. If it fails, I guess we start to think along the lines that if they can't get the BFP for me, no-one can.

Oh, in terms of hand-holding, the ARGC is not perhaps suited for sensitive girls. Treatment is discussed with the nurses/girls in a room with other people and whilst they all seem nice, it's not very private. Having been through this so many times, I'm OK with this, but if you are the type that needs lots of personal care and attention, bear this in mind.

Anyway, that's my view - hope it helps!

[lolajones]

Moving this up for Vickie

[Vickie]

Thank-you so much for bumping this thread up for me.

Just wandering if any of the ARGC girls are still here, if you have an idea of how much a treatment cycle would cost. They have told me on the phone between 4 & 7 but i am reading people pay 10+.

We just would not be able to afford this.

We were not offered any explanation why our 1st cycle failed at our local hosp (poor in reaults table) except for we were extremely unlucky!
The only prob we have known to us is that i have blocked tubes and have had laser surgery which has not worked!

DH and i are both 25 and are healthy etc. I wander if i went to ARGC if i would be made to have all the immune tests etc which would obviously bump up the price??

I'm so confused - we're going to send the paperwork into them 2moro 2 hopefully arrange a consultation, will they be able to give an accurate idea of the cost then?

Thanks for ur help
Vickie x x x

[CarolynB]

Vickie

I am very interested to hear how you get on as certainly thinking of going there for a 'final' cycle before I throw in the towel.

I would check what drugs/tests the price they have quoted you includes. My friend went there and I think she told me that she had to pay extra for each of the blood tests, every scans as they were not included in a 'packaged' price and also ended up paying more for all the drugs that they use. All this ended up bumping the cost from £7k nearer £10k for her. That is all second-hand though as I have not got there - yet!

The very best of luck. Keep us posted.
Love
Carolyn xx

[Vickie]

Thanx carolyn.

I have been doing s bit of reading up on it and it sounds like some of the ladies ask ARGC for the presciptions for the drugs and get them elsewhere and so save a bit of money that way.

We have only just had all of our bloods etc taken for our 1st failed cycle and i phoned the clinic and they said that we wouldn't have 2 have them taken again so that also saves a little bit.

My only worry is that it seems they prefer to do ICSI but we had no prob with fertilisation on our last attempt so would be baffled if they suggest we do this!

It seems that the daily bloods really push the price up however, i think i would feel a bit more relaxed that it was working and last time i only had 2 scans and it felt like it was a huge build up if anxiety to see if it had been working!

DH def wants me to go there as he says its the best in the country and so would feel more confident about it working!

I have read that mr T likes you to totally rest for the 2ww yet at my clinic they said i didn't need any rest at all and therefore worry that i may have done too much!

Its so confusing but i think, we're going to have 2 make a decision and run with it. i will be honest my main reservation is the cost. You can't put a price on having the baby u so desperately want but, it'd be difficult if you mananged to get the money together for what you think it will cost and then it may end up coming in much higher than that - i don't know what we'd do!!

Have u heard many success stories?

LOL Vickie x x x

[lolajones]

Vickie

It is very confusing. As you can see from my post in this thread, I am very sceptical about the ARGC.

My friend will end up paying about £11,000 for her cycle. She was diagnosed with a "slight immune problem". Both she and I are doctors and frankly have never heard such an unscientific diagnosis. She felt like she'd been had and taken advantage of. They also said her husband had a "mild antiboby problem" and they would have to have ICSI. She already has a child (natural preg 3 yrs ago) with same DH. My dh had same antibody issue - I had ivf and 16 of my 18 eggs fertilised, I didn't need ICSI and she probably doesn't either, is it cynical to say it just gives them extra cash and thats why they suggest it?
Also, this "immune problem". Some people do have issues and benefit from steroids and aspirin etc however, pretty much everyone who has this test at the ARGC is diagnosed with the same thing.

The figures look good for the clinic but a little known fact is that the same doctor using same techniques, has another clinic just down the road. You never hear about that clinic because the figures are average to poor. Why is that? It makes me think that he puts successful cases through as one clinic name (ARGC) and majority of failures through the other.

I hope I don't sound like some wacko conspiracy theorist. Lots of people are successful at the ARGC. My worry is that by massaging figures and organising unnecesary tests (daily bloods for everyone?) they can hike their prices to triple other london clinics and attract couples who are desperate for children. We are a vulnerable group and people can take advantage, Mr T is loaded.

You are young and you have time on your side. Before signing up with the ARGC have a think. For the same price as 1 cycle there you could have 3 cycles elsewhere.

Let us know what you decide and how you get on - I would love to be proved wrong about the place and happily spend my pension on a sure thing!

Good luck

Lola
xxxxxx

[gbnut]

Hi there

I have just done a cycle with ARGC. So i might be able to answer some of your questions. It is costly but that is more because they monitor you more closely. In my case i did need that extra monitoring as i was at risk of OHSS. At my last clinic i nearly ended in hospital becaues they did not monitor me closely. You do have to pay for daily blood tests but this payment does not go to mr T and goes to he clinic which does the tests which is not ARGC but a blood place on Harley street. Other treatment centres also use them. You do not pay for every scan just the first and the rest are included in the package. Not everyone has ICSI just if you have poor low sperm or probs with sperm or if your eggs are not the best quality. We had to have icsi but did at Barts as well as DH has low mortility. The clinic get high figures as they really do tailor the needs of the client and change your treatment as needed through out. Not everyone is tested for immune probs just if they feel that you have a problem. I have sever endo and that is related to poor immune system so they recommended that i have the test but it was up to me. It came back thet i had problems and had to take steroids asprin clexane and have IVIG. But they did get me pregnant but unfortunaely i miscarried.

Lola as regards to the other clinic that clinic is part of ARGC and is where lots of the people get the ET and is also were the embryos are fertilised and kept until they are transferred.


As regards to cost if you have normal ivf and do not have to have any other treatment it will cost about £5000 - £6000 depending on what drugs you are on. It is cheaper to get a prescription and get drugs away from london. We had icsi and that cost an extra £ 1000 and had to have ivig which was £2000 and other drugs and that cost more so the prices can go up.

The clinic is also very busy and you do not get much privacy when talking to nurses however they do phone you everyday and you can speak to the nurse then. They certainly do not hold your hand unless you ask.!!!!!!

If you have any other questions please ask

Susan x

[Vickie]

Thank-you very much for the info, its such a hard decision, i really do think i want to go there but am so nervous about paying so much money if it really isn't much better than other clinics! Money is an issue for us but i will find it if i think we really are getting the best treatment possible.

Do u know anything about the hyscscopy (sorry don't know how to spell it) that they like you to have to check ur womb? - did they make u have this?

sorry to ask so many questions!!!

LOL Vickie x x x