After my first BFN IVF attempt - I kind of feel like I was ripped-off by a "second-hand car salesman". In that he was after my money - it is so hard to know if what the doctors say is true, whether or not they deliberately make mistakes so you have to repeat a cycle, or try to flog- you- off with a "Quick fix" (IVF ). I really felt my doctor was just like a second-hand car salesman - you should have seen how he grasped my hand and shook it hard as we had signed the contract, and the great big grin and smile on his face.
I found this quoted on a website;
"Because the treatment is so expensive, many doctors feel IVF is a lucrative business proposition, as a result of which many IVF clinics start simply to make money. They then pressurise infertile couples ( who could get pregnant with simpler treatment options) to go in for IVF, leading to unnecessary overtreatment. Since these are often young couples with minimal medical problems, their pregnancy rates with IVF are high, thus boosting the clinic’s success rate, and their reputation as well."
My doctor actually advised it was best to proceed with IVF rather than to have the laproscopy done first to diagnose if my right tube was blocked or not (obviously if right tube was found not to be blocked, it would have meant no IVF and no large sum of money ). I think he did this as I was in tears when he first mentioned having the laproscopy ( I was just so scared about it I cried ), then he took advantage of the very instable state that I was in and tried selling me IVF - "That would mean you would be parents in July ". "You are young, healthy so I think we could do it" blah. blah. blah. All the positive stuff basically about IVF - knowing that in the state I was in - floods of tears, I would just say yes.
The I read this too - how do you know they do the correct things? Give you correct dosage of medication etc..:
"While such gross malpractise is thankfully rare, other subtle deficiencies are much commoner. Some clinics, for example, do not offer embryo freezing services, claiming falsely that pregnancy rates with frozen embryos are poor. They then use the surplus embryos they create during IVF either for research ( for example, to create embryonic stem cell lines), or for donation to other infertile couples, rather than storing them for the couple.
Even “internationally reputed” clinics resort to some underhand practices – and perhaps this is even more dangerous, because few patients dare to question them , given their reputation. Thus, some push unproven treatments such as immunotherapy for recurrent pregnancy losses, offering their patients false hope after making them spend lots of money. Since these treatments are still controversial and unproven, it would only be fair to offer them as part of a controlled clinical trial, at no charge to patients. However, these patients are often so desperate, that they are happy to grasp at straws – especially when these are cloaked in the garb of scientific gobbledygook."
I know IVF is a risk we all take, but finding trust in anyone is so hard. Anyone else had situations like this? and how do you know when to trust? This clinic is even supposed to be one of the best in Berlin?! As I thought I had done lots of reading, research.. Just worried they may try stuff on with the second try (if I need to have it ). I could change clinics - but then I would be confronted with new staff who may be the same. I feel it may be better to stay at the one I am at, in the sense of "it is better the devil you know, than the one you don´t ".
We all just do not know what goes on behind the scenes.. it is scary really...
Do not want to scare people with my post - but I was horrified to read this info on the web, and it confirmed that my doc was after my money. The last time I felt like this was after being sold a "dud" car by a second-hand car salesman, years ago as a student.
Anyone have any tips with building trust - or what we need to be careful to say or do.
Bekki
Trusting doctors
Hi Bekki,
I don't really post these days, but do read the boards and your post rang so true for me.
I have recently changed clinics after 3 DIUI and 2 ICSI all BFNs. I went to Brussels and Manchester for a second opinion as I was disgusted with my clinic's attitude. I was given a dangerous dosage of drugs and told the fact I always have AF day 10 after ovulation was not a problem.
In both the new clinics they were disgusted about the amount of drugs I was taking, promised close monitoring of my progesterone levels after ET and have insisted I go and get a huge patch of endo removed before further treatment. My new RE says that as the endo is squashing the womb, it is unlikely I could have ever got pregnant with it.
I know for a fact my ex clinic were ripping me off. What worries me is that I am quite forthright and it has taken me a lot to move clinics. People who don't know and are desperate and probably hugely in debt, will keep on going on a false promise because they don't know any better. We are taught to trust our doctors and it is very difficult to begin to question them.
If I were you I'd go for a second opinion. You don't need to tell your current clinic, just see what somewhere else says. If you don't completely trust them now, if it doesn't work next time, you'll kick yourself.
Good luck.
I don't really post these days, but do read the boards and your post rang so true for me.
I have recently changed clinics after 3 DIUI and 2 ICSI all BFNs. I went to Brussels and Manchester for a second opinion as I was disgusted with my clinic's attitude. I was given a dangerous dosage of drugs and told the fact I always have AF day 10 after ovulation was not a problem.
In both the new clinics they were disgusted about the amount of drugs I was taking, promised close monitoring of my progesterone levels after ET and have insisted I go and get a huge patch of endo removed before further treatment. My new RE says that as the endo is squashing the womb, it is unlikely I could have ever got pregnant with it.
I know for a fact my ex clinic were ripping me off. What worries me is that I am quite forthright and it has taken me a lot to move clinics. People who don't know and are desperate and probably hugely in debt, will keep on going on a false promise because they don't know any better. We are taught to trust our doctors and it is very difficult to begin to question them.
If I were you I'd go for a second opinion. You don't need to tell your current clinic, just see what somewhere else says. If you don't completely trust them now, if it doesn't work next time, you'll kick yourself.
Good luck.
Thanks Lynne,
The advice was good. As I live in Germany I managed to find a German chatboard and am actually now in contact with another lady who sees the same doctor and goes to the same clinic. We are sharing our thoughts and feelings - she also agrees with me that he rushes his job and does not explain everything very well. Another completely different lady says she is satisfied with the Doc and to try to give him a chance... so kind of mixed feeling s at the moment..
I am not going to rush into another IVF without more tests and checks anyway - so I will see how he is with the tests and checks and if we still are not satisfied and feel uncomfortable, then we can change before the next IVF.
Thanks again! Bekki
The advice was good. As I live in Germany I managed to find a German chatboard and am actually now in contact with another lady who sees the same doctor and goes to the same clinic. We are sharing our thoughts and feelings - she also agrees with me that he rushes his job and does not explain everything very well. Another completely different lady says she is satisfied with the Doc and to try to give him a chance... so kind of mixed feeling s at the moment..
I am not going to rush into another IVF without more tests and checks anyway - so I will see how he is with the tests and checks and if we still are not satisfied and feel uncomfortable, then we can change before the next IVF.
Thanks again! Bekki
Hi bekkie
forgive me if i'm mistaken but i've just noted that your clinic is in berlin - isnt it illegal to have ivf in germany? its just because all of my family are out there and we did consider having ivf out there and were then told that fertilisation outside the body, ie the basics of ivf, are illegal.
i do think its really hard to know whether or not you can trust a clinic. i will be starting my first ivf in dec/jan so i'm all new to this and have thought about this myself. i think you just have to listen to your gut instinct in many ways. and i do think speaking to people who have been at the same clinic in the past helps.
x
forgive me if i'm mistaken but i've just noted that your clinic is in berlin - isnt it illegal to have ivf in germany? its just because all of my family are out there and we did consider having ivf out there and were then told that fertilisation outside the body, ie the basics of ivf, are illegal.
i do think its really hard to know whether or not you can trust a clinic. i will be starting my first ivf in dec/jan so i'm all new to this and have thought about this myself. i think you just have to listen to your gut instinct in many ways. and i do think speaking to people who have been at the same clinic in the past helps.
x
hey ladies,
I changed 2 doctors before I found my current one. Though I have different sutiation.
1st one proceed to check me for an one year and after not founding anything wrong with me suggested to put me on clomid. Which would be fine in any other case, except in my case, we have a Male factor. My first doctor didn't even think about ordering a sperm test for my husband, it simply didn't cross his mind and I lost whole year because of it.
2nd one, ordered a sperm test right away ( thanks for that!@!!!) but man , I felt like I am in some kind of futuristic plant, where we patients are machines for producing money and babies. He was so cold and indifferent to my case and in general, for him we were just another couple who will bring him money. I was so disgust with it, I left his office.
now my 3d one is good so far, at least I can feel some warm emotions toward me and my case, though I can't say the same thing about her nurses, ( cold blooded byaches, pardon my french).
I changed 2 doctors before I found my current one. Though I have different sutiation.
1st one proceed to check me for an one year and after not founding anything wrong with me suggested to put me on clomid. Which would be fine in any other case, except in my case, we have a Male factor. My first doctor didn't even think about ordering a sperm test for my husband, it simply didn't cross his mind and I lost whole year because of it.
2nd one, ordered a sperm test right away ( thanks for that!@!!!) but man , I felt like I am in some kind of futuristic plant, where we patients are machines for producing money and babies. He was so cold and indifferent to my case and in general, for him we were just another couple who will bring him money. I was so disgust with it, I left his office.
now my 3d one is good so far, at least I can feel some warm emotions toward me and my case, though I can't say the same thing about her nurses, ( cold blooded byaches, pardon my french).
Hi Malinka
You wrote:
"2nd one, ordered a sperm test right away ( thanks for that!@!!!) but man , I felt like I am in some kind of futuristic plant, where we patients are machines for producing money and babies. He was so cold and indifferent to my case and in general, for him we were just another couple who will bring him money. I was so disgust with it, I left his office."
That was exactly how my doctor was the first time I saw him!! I went back yesterday for a follow-up appointment but he seemed a bit better and I was careful not to be led into being talked into another IVF without a proper check first. I am still a little wary as he is very different to my normal GYN (who is also a man ). My normal GYN spends time to get to know me, makes funny jokes to put me at ease as he knows I am always terrified when I go for checks and there is always a nurse in the room with him which also helps.
However this specilaist GYN at the fertility clinic is very cold and also if I go alone or with my hubbie he has no other nurse or assistant present in the room - if I cry or get upset there are no comforting words and he very rarely smiles or makes nice jokes. I know doctors are not there to spend the time joking about and talking to patients to get to know them, but I do feel that part of their job is to try to put a frightened patient at ease and to say things to make them feel better. But I guess the normal GYN is not after my money whereas the GYNs in these ferility clinics may be different and after our money and therefore feel very indifferent about peoples cases - ok not all of these doctors but maybe some of them? Although he was a bit better this time round, there is still something creepy about him which I can´t quite put a finger on and he seems very odd indeed. I found it wierd that in all previous visits he has been so cold and never joked or tried to be nice then suddenly yesterday when he saw me after about 6 weeks he made comments about my hair and asked if it was darker than it was the last time I saw him (yes I had coloured it, but not in a way that would be soo noticeable ?!) - it was said without smiles and not in a joking way . He may have just been trying to be friendly and that is his just way of doing it, but it was very odd indeed and seemed out of place for him (given that he is normally very cold) and he has never made any attempt to talk to me in such a way like that before. My husband was there too so I do not think any malice was meant .. but still it sent shivers down me. From being on the German boards there are mixed emotions about him - some are satisfied with him, some think he rushes his job and one lady changed because the chemistry was not right between her and the doctor (the doctor I am seeing ).
I have a laproscopy on 22nd december to check to see if the right fallopian tube is blocked or not and to rule out any other possibilities as to why the IVF failed. I will wait to see what the results are from that and what treatment is recommended afterwards and in this time and during the next few visits I can be thinking about whether or not to change clinics before any further possible IVF treatment.
Bekki xx
TTC since our marriage in 2000
Ectopic pregnancy feb 2005
October 1st IVF = BFN
22nd December 2006 laproscopy is planned to check tubes, uterus etc..
You wrote:
"2nd one, ordered a sperm test right away ( thanks for that!@!!!) but man , I felt like I am in some kind of futuristic plant, where we patients are machines for producing money and babies. He was so cold and indifferent to my case and in general, for him we were just another couple who will bring him money. I was so disgust with it, I left his office."
That was exactly how my doctor was the first time I saw him!! I went back yesterday for a follow-up appointment but he seemed a bit better and I was careful not to be led into being talked into another IVF without a proper check first. I am still a little wary as he is very different to my normal GYN (who is also a man ). My normal GYN spends time to get to know me, makes funny jokes to put me at ease as he knows I am always terrified when I go for checks and there is always a nurse in the room with him which also helps.
However this specilaist GYN at the fertility clinic is very cold and also if I go alone or with my hubbie he has no other nurse or assistant present in the room - if I cry or get upset there are no comforting words and he very rarely smiles or makes nice jokes. I know doctors are not there to spend the time joking about and talking to patients to get to know them, but I do feel that part of their job is to try to put a frightened patient at ease and to say things to make them feel better. But I guess the normal GYN is not after my money whereas the GYNs in these ferility clinics may be different and after our money and therefore feel very indifferent about peoples cases - ok not all of these doctors but maybe some of them? Although he was a bit better this time round, there is still something creepy about him which I can´t quite put a finger on and he seems very odd indeed. I found it wierd that in all previous visits he has been so cold and never joked or tried to be nice then suddenly yesterday when he saw me after about 6 weeks he made comments about my hair and asked if it was darker than it was the last time I saw him (yes I had coloured it, but not in a way that would be soo noticeable ?!) - it was said without smiles and not in a joking way . He may have just been trying to be friendly and that is his just way of doing it, but it was very odd indeed and seemed out of place for him (given that he is normally very cold) and he has never made any attempt to talk to me in such a way like that before. My husband was there too so I do not think any malice was meant .. but still it sent shivers down me. From being on the German boards there are mixed emotions about him - some are satisfied with him, some think he rushes his job and one lady changed because the chemistry was not right between her and the doctor (the doctor I am seeing ).
I have a laproscopy on 22nd december to check to see if the right fallopian tube is blocked or not and to rule out any other possibilities as to why the IVF failed. I will wait to see what the results are from that and what treatment is recommended afterwards and in this time and during the next few visits I can be thinking about whether or not to change clinics before any further possible IVF treatment.
Bekki xx
TTC since our marriage in 2000
Ectopic pregnancy feb 2005
October 1st IVF = BFN
22nd December 2006 laproscopy is planned to check tubes, uterus etc..
Shantala,
I seem to remember IVF was illegal at one point in Germany (but quite a way back before I moved here ), but it is not illegal now - no you were not getting at me - and I never even saw your post!!!!! So I am answering now. Healthcare is good here in Germany and you can get IVF done quite quickly - if your German is not good they speak English - but so far I have spoken German. I think because at one point IVF was illegal, when they finally made it legal they imposed strict embryo laws. For example you cannot select embryos and if you are under 35 only 2 can be transfered back.
Don´t let my post about my Doctor scare you - he is just very wierd and I cannot put a finger on what it is (somehow he sends out very bad vibes) - other than that I have been impressed so far by the treatment (even after the BFN result ). Whether or not I change clinics or change the doctor after the operation is still undecided - I am still collecting infos from other lady patients who see him and weighing-up the odds!
Bekki
xx
Me 31, DH 34
TTC since our marriage in 2000
Ectopic pregnancy feb 2005
October 2006 1st IVF = BFN
Next step: Laproscopy on 22nd December.
I seem to remember IVF was illegal at one point in Germany (but quite a way back before I moved here ), but it is not illegal now - no you were not getting at me - and I never even saw your post!!!!! So I am answering now. Healthcare is good here in Germany and you can get IVF done quite quickly - if your German is not good they speak English - but so far I have spoken German. I think because at one point IVF was illegal, when they finally made it legal they imposed strict embryo laws. For example you cannot select embryos and if you are under 35 only 2 can be transfered back.
Don´t let my post about my Doctor scare you - he is just very wierd and I cannot put a finger on what it is (somehow he sends out very bad vibes) - other than that I have been impressed so far by the treatment (even after the BFN result ). Whether or not I change clinics or change the doctor after the operation is still undecided - I am still collecting infos from other lady patients who see him and weighing-up the odds!
Bekki
xxMe 31, DH 34
TTC since our marriage in 2000
Ectopic pregnancy feb 2005
October 2006 1st IVF = BFN
Next step: Laproscopy on 22nd December.
Hi Shantala,
The clinics are all well-equipped and use up-to-date modern methods of IVF and the clinics are all the same throughout the country. As I actually live nd work in Germany I am partially covered by the german health insurance.
The German health insurance pays 50% of the cost of a round of IVF. So we paid around 1,400 Euros (around 1, 250 UK pounds ). But that was basic IVF without freezing embryos, without genetic testing and without a 5 day transfer. If you want to have these extra options the health insurance does not pay for them. Freezing embryos would have meant an extra 500 pounds, genetic testing around 500, and a 5 day transfer 300 pounds.
Without german health insurnce expect to pay around 3,000 pounds for IVF and then if you want the extra options you will need to add the extra costs on - so if you wantr 5 day transfer you would pay 3,300 pounds etc..
We did not pay everything in one go - one month was payment for medication - the next for the IVF and so on..
Hope it helps .. ooo and as we were watching TV last night I plucked up the courage to ask my husband about the doctor as he is usually there in the room when I visit him. I said "Do you think that doctor we see is wierd?" and he said "Yes, he is a bit odd ". Then I said "Now you can see why I atleast would not want to visit him alone ". and my husband nodded. I was expecting that he would not agree and that it was just me being paranoid, but as he agreed and I know my husband when he is being serious, I think it is best to change.
It has confirmed my vibes completely - as I am good at picking-up on when something is not right. So I think after the operation we either change clinics or change the doctor at the same clinic. Yuck ... he is certainly creepy...
Take care, Bekki xxx
Me 31, DH 34
TTC since our marriage in 2000
Ectopic pregnancy Feb 2005 - removal of left tube
October 2006 1st IVF = BFN
Next step: laproscopy on 22nd December - and a possible change of doctor as current one is a bit creepy
The clinics are all well-equipped and use up-to-date modern methods of IVF and the clinics are all the same throughout the country. As I actually live nd work in Germany I am partially covered by the german health insurance.
The German health insurance pays 50% of the cost of a round of IVF. So we paid around 1,400 Euros (around 1, 250 UK pounds ). But that was basic IVF without freezing embryos, without genetic testing and without a 5 day transfer. If you want to have these extra options the health insurance does not pay for them. Freezing embryos would have meant an extra 500 pounds, genetic testing around 500, and a 5 day transfer 300 pounds.
Without german health insurnce expect to pay around 3,000 pounds for IVF and then if you want the extra options you will need to add the extra costs on - so if you wantr 5 day transfer you would pay 3,300 pounds etc..
We did not pay everything in one go - one month was payment for medication - the next for the IVF and so on..
Hope it helps .. ooo and as we were watching TV last night I plucked up the courage to ask my husband about the doctor as he is usually there in the room when I visit him. I said "Do you think that doctor we see is wierd?" and he said "Yes, he is a bit odd ". Then I said "Now you can see why I atleast would not want to visit him alone ". and my husband nodded. I was expecting that he would not agree and that it was just me being paranoid, but as he agreed and I know my husband when he is being serious, I think it is best to change.
It has confirmed my vibes completely - as I am good at picking-up on when something is not right. So I think after the operation we either change clinics or change the doctor at the same clinic. Yuck ... he is certainly creepy...
Take care, Bekki xxx
Me 31, DH 34
TTC since our marriage in 2000
Ectopic pregnancy Feb 2005 - removal of left tube
October 2006 1st IVF = BFN
Next step: laproscopy on 22nd December - and a possible change of doctor as current one is a bit creepy
Hi bekkie
thanks for so much information. i'll definitely keep it in mind! i'm not sure what we would do about the health insurance bit. my dad has it (its compulsory, isnt it?) so i'm not sure if i could claim on his if i lived with him for a bit?? but anyway, that doesnt matter. i would just have to save loads more!!
really glad that your DH felt the same about your doc. it must put your mind at rest!!!
hope all is well
xx
thanks for so much information. i'll definitely keep it in mind! i'm not sure what we would do about the health insurance bit. my dad has it (its compulsory, isnt it?) so i'm not sure if i could claim on his if i lived with him for a bit?? but anyway, that doesnt matter. i would just have to save loads more!!
really glad that your DH felt the same about your doc. it must put your mind at rest!!!
hope all is well
xx
so true
Before my wife and I entered this process, my biggest problem was that there is no "unbiased" mediator for IVF treatment. I understand that no doctor will take the liability and suggest not trying IVF but that fact no consultant service exists, a service which has no vested interest in IVF can tell you if in fact there is a medical need to go through with the IVF process. What I am trying to say is, it is a business and just like any busisness, you are going to see the type of feedback as we read above.
It is a shame but the important thing to note here is if you are looking to go the IVF route, no matter what the clinical or personel reasons may be, look around and consult with more than one clinic.
Lucky for my wife and I, our clinic is wonderful from the top down. Very positive yet professional, always calling us to follow up, and great customer service. The first clinic we visted we were not comfy with, so we found someone else.
LOOK AROUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is a shame but the important thing to note here is if you are looking to go the IVF route, no matter what the clinical or personel reasons may be, look around and consult with more than one clinic.
Lucky for my wife and I, our clinic is wonderful from the top down. Very positive yet professional, always calling us to follow up, and great customer service. The first clinic we visted we were not comfy with, so we found someone else.
LOOK AROUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shantala - yes the German insurance is compulsory - you can make enquiries with your dad about whether or not you could claim on his insurance. Good luck and let me know how things go if you choose that route.
Daddy24 - congratulations on becoming a daddy. Good luck. As both hubbie and I are unsatisfied with the doctor we will change after I have had my laproscopy. The doctor was certainly out to get money (that is when I noticed IVF is just a business ), but after further visits he also proved to be very wierd and it was the wierdness that concerned us more.. you do not really say to a patient:
"Maybe you have to get used to a doctor to be sure he does nothing bad ".
Just to mention one of the strange things among the many that was said.
We were both sat glued to our chairs, frozen stiff and daren´t move. That is no sales tactics or business tactics - no doctor should have you freeze so you are scared to move. Sorry if it sounds like I am having a go, but I can put up with sales tactics but just not downright wierdness - strange comments like that and about my hair (not even said as a joke or to be friendly - it scared my hubbie ). What does the colour of my hair have to do with IVF?
- Anyway I have a list of other clinics to try in Berlin that have been recommended to me by some german ladies on the german chat-forums. So the choice is there! I have listened to other ladies who visit the same doctor and I have weighed-up the odds.
Right now I am going on holiday to forget about it all as quite frankly I have had enough of the whole IVF fuss and bother, then I am having the laproscopy when I come back - I won´t be rushing into IVF so fast again (and I may not even need it - depends on if right tube is blocked or not ) - so we have time to think about where to go and what to do. I have already learned from my first BFN and how to handle sales people.
Thanks,
Bekki
TTC since our marriage in 2000
Ectopic pregnancy Feb 2005 - removal of left tube.
1st IVF October 2006 - BFN
Next step: laproscopy on 22nd December
Daddy24 - congratulations on becoming a daddy. Good luck. As both hubbie and I are unsatisfied with the doctor we will change after I have had my laproscopy. The doctor was certainly out to get money (that is when I noticed IVF is just a business ), but after further visits he also proved to be very wierd and it was the wierdness that concerned us more.. you do not really say to a patient:
"Maybe you have to get used to a doctor to be sure he does nothing bad ".
Just to mention one of the strange things among the many that was said.
We were both sat glued to our chairs, frozen stiff and daren´t move. That is no sales tactics or business tactics - no doctor should have you freeze so you are scared to move. Sorry if it sounds like I am having a go, but I can put up with sales tactics but just not downright wierdness - strange comments like that and about my hair (not even said as a joke or to be friendly - it scared my hubbie ). What does the colour of my hair have to do with IVF?
- Anyway I have a list of other clinics to try in Berlin that have been recommended to me by some german ladies on the german chat-forums. So the choice is there! I have listened to other ladies who visit the same doctor and I have weighed-up the odds.
Right now I am going on holiday to forget about it all as quite frankly I have had enough of the whole IVF fuss and bother, then I am having the laproscopy when I come back - I won´t be rushing into IVF so fast again (and I may not even need it - depends on if right tube is blocked or not ) - so we have time to think about where to go and what to do. I have already learned from my first BFN and how to handle sales people.
Thanks,
Bekki
TTC since our marriage in 2000
Ectopic pregnancy Feb 2005 - removal of left tube.
1st IVF October 2006 - BFN
Next step: laproscopy on 22nd December