Message for Caz 2

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Oct 20, 2003 7:02 pm

Hi Guys Hope you found the space! I hope everyone is keeping ok.....! Just on for a moan as nothing is really changed, it just seems to hit home harder each time..........and I find the waiting really painful. (just in case noone remembers, DH has Sertoli Cell Only Syndrome - azoospermia from birth, congenital thing, sometimes with very few germ cell producing sperm, although very rare that they do) Had our second appointment with the andrologist on Friday 17th October and basically it is a case of my DH staying off the alcohol for another 3 months whereupon he will be tested again......if any sperm appear at all they will proceed with IVF/ICSI. Another test will be done which will coincide with IVF/ICSI dates, if there is no sperm of that day, then it is a biopsy/TESE for poor DH and the chances of finding anything is remote and again even if they do find them they will be weak therefore fertilization chances are low. All in all we are looking at a more realistic option of Donor Sperm which in any case will be a back up on the day. Currently going out of my mind waiting! We are just about to start going through the IVF bits now to get us ready for end of Jan beginnign of Feb. JenF x

caz1 · Post by **caz1** » Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:25 pm

HI there!! So sorry - been working like a nutter and partying a bit Not sure whats really happened to me - since I went back to work after 1st ICSI failed its like I've regressed 5 years! I think I'm just trying to have a good time after so many crappy months. On the wholes its worked OK I guess! You and I are on the same schedule I think. We too are on for ICSI with TESE in Fed (ish). I think we are going back to the London Fertility Centre as the Bridge Centre hasnt been overly helpful. I thnk this time we are going to not use a donor back up as our fertilisation rate was so low last time - we need all the eggs we can to put with DHs sperm, just to try and get 1 good embryo. I dont think it'll ever work and we have agreed that if it fails this next time - we'll do donor next year. Finally coming round to it. I think we have decided to be pretty "secretive " or "private" about it. Jen - I hope it all goes well for you. Funny my DH hasnt been asked to give up alcohol - they dont seem to think it'll make that much difference.....mmmm, who knows? Good luck Jen - keep in touch wont you? Becky - if you are there -hello!! How it all going - where are you at with the adoption process - did you mange to get the ball rolling with the home visits etc? Hope so. Let me know how you're doing. Take care all Cazxx

becky · Post by **becky** » Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:56 pm

Hello I am still here....check in almost every day to see where everyone is. The adoption is going slowly but surely if that makes sense.. We have had a home visit which went really well but we were not chosen to go through onto the next group this year as they had too many people..so hoping for next Spring or Summer to be contacted?? In a way I think that it is for the best as I am changing jobs and it gives me to time to settle in..I have decided to give up my past paced well paid office part time job to a full time minimum wage job in a kiddies nursery - mad I hear you say but since I have been embracing it all I feel so much better and the kids are just amazing. The most bizzare thing is that my manager just got a positive last week from her second go at ICSI and it is fine..I am so pleased for her and she is so supporting of me of the adoption and as she has failed the first time she knows the emotions that I am feeling. I have also been having a major feng shui clear out..going to do the wardrobe next week but so far just paper work, clutter, and moving furniture. I have also made some promises to myself and going to try to make some major health and mental changes over the next few months so that I am almost converted for the New Year. I even gave my next door neighbours kiddies my 2 guinea pigs today as I need to make a few changes and move on..(I think that dh thinks that I am going to trade him in soon..and the dog and cat have been in hiding!) We had some blood test results back a few weeks back to say that my NK cells are perfect which has put some closure onto why the ICSI didn't work..I guess that it was just not meant to be. So where are you at? It sounds like you have been doing some serious thinking..I knew from the start that you needed to have another go and I am glad that you are..I also knew deep down that we had reached the end of our road and just needed to 100% work it out for myself and put to bed some unfinished thoughts and feelings. Don't get me wrong it still hurts like mad when I hear celebrations and pregnancy announcements but I am also so proud to be chosen to adopt and I really feel that this is our destiny. take care love Becky p.s the best bit is you can keep up with the wine...

caz1 · Post by **caz1** » Sun Oct 26, 2003 6:28 pm

Hi Becky - So pleased to hear that things are moving in the right direction - it must be incredibly refreshing to be able to actually DO something - I think thats whats so awful about this process otherwise - ie, that you are so totally out of control. With adoption - to a certain extent you get to control your destiny! Know what you mean about the clear out - have done similar stuff, plus we went ahead with our dream of buying a run down place somewhere out of town !! which we'll spend the next few years doing up. We had always thought maybe we should wait for kids...but as we could be waiting forever - we decided to go for it anyway. Cant put your life on hold can you ..... I think we are ICSI in Feb(ish) and I think it'll be our last go before the donor route comes into play. I think I am pretty convinced that the DI thing is right - but just not 100% sure that DH is. He says hes OK with it - but just doesnt really seem to want to talk about it. Am V V worried hes just saying YES for my benefit - and do get quite scared that we might go for it and then 5 months down the line he might freak out and leave me or something! Which of course WOULD be my worst nightmare Errrrr - I dunno, nightmare isnt it? Keep in touch Becky - love chatting Hi to Jen too! Cazxx

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:32 pm

Hi Girls Becky - so glad that everything is going well with the adoption and the new job! Caz at least we can moan to each other about ICSI from now until February. I am keeping DH company with the no alcohol thing and have suddenly realised that our lives revolve around a bottle of wine!! I can't wait to get stuck into a bottle at some stage!! (Going home to Ireland for the weekend, so might sneak to the pub with my sister!!) I don't think DH giving up alcohol makes a huge differnce but it is a case of every little helps and there is virtually no hope anyway, to the point where the andrologist is recommending only one attempt at ICSI (which could end up using donor sperm anyway)and then Donor. I don't know about you guys but at the moment I feel like this has really changed my personality....I am usually the life and soul of the party, now I am a first class bore - can't plan anything until we know dates for this thing - therefore nothing to look forward to so just keep obcessing about all this stuff - viscious circle! Anyway we have our first appointment on 3 November with the doctors who are going to deal with the ICSI part - the Andrologist referred us onto them so at least it feels like we are going somewhere! Take care guys Jenxx [Edited by JenF on 26-Oct-03 13:36]

caz1 · Post by **caz1** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 5:52 pm

Hi there Jen I know what you mean about it changing your personality...its the not drinking that does that I find!! I have to say I got really fed up with putting my life on hold and have spent the last couple of months partying and working pretty hard and being my old self. Doesnt work 100% and still def have VERY tearful moments but I think its better , for me anyway Good luck for the 3rd - you and I really are in the same boat - we were meant to have a donor back up last time - but I couldnt face it. I dont think we will next time either - I think if we do donor - it will be a special cycle just for that - I kind of dont what it to seem like the 2nd best (ie "back up") option - if it comes to it (and it probably will) I wanna take a proactive decision that THATS what we wnat to do. If that makes any sense? It certainly doesnt to the docs , who think we;re mad not having a donor back up! Let me know how you get on. Hello to Becky too!! Cazx

beckym · Post by **beckym** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:45 pm

hi guys hope you don't mind me butting in to ask an intimate question. I am on my second ICSI attempt. dh has very low count which we think is probably due to epilepsy drug which he has been taking for 10 years. I brought up subject of diui back in May after last ICSI cycle failed (and I ended up in hospital with ohss) and he reacted very strongly against it saying he wouldn't feel like it was his baby etc. I must admit I was angry about this at the time as I think it may be our only real chance and I have to admit feeling he should have been a bit more open-minded about it. I think he then saw how I felt and got scared that I was going to leave and said that he would have to think long and hard about it. haven't broached the subject since. he is however very keen to adopt if ICSI fails which I find hard to understand. although I would also be keen to adopt further on down the line if diui were to fail, why is it so difficult for him to let me have a child through diui? has anyone else had this with their dh? I know there is a huge male pride thing going on but I know I would be prepared to have donor egg if the situation was reversed. know this is a really sensitive area so hope haven't offended anyone. maybe we need to go to counselling on this. beckym xxx

rachel r · Post by **rachel r** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:19 pm

Becky M Sorry to but in on your question for the other girls, but When we had our first ICSI fail, we discussed the issue of a sperm donor. I felt myself that it might be hard for him to deal with, and he said that that was the reason for him too, from the point that he would feel the baby was mine and not his and that I would have a bond with the baby that he wouldn't and he didn't know how he would feel in years to come about the child - of course you love it because its your child and everything, but would you feel that there was something missing from your relationship with them. And would it affect our relationship, i.e. resentment or whatever. I think the question of donors, both sperm and egg, are a whole different ball game that need so much more consideration than both partners jointly going into ivf/icsi and I can kind of see the reasoning behind wanting to adopt rather than do donor, as neither of you then have a biological connection with the child, and you are both going into it on level pegging. Probably haven't been any help but thought i'd stick my nose in regardless! Good luck with this cycle Love Rachel x

july ann · Post by **july ann** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:25 pm

hi girls hope you do not mind me butting in. hb and I are going down the donor route as he has low sperm count and we have had 4 goes, one ivf with a donor but still a negative.we had lot's of counselling and felt we wanted to have a baby, I have donated my own eggs and feel I gave a gift to someone and now some one is giving a gift to me. I also feel that dh sperm was not ment to fertilize my eggs and perhap's there is a reason for that i.e there would have been a problem with the baby. what we have been through has brought us closer together and hb say's he love's me so much that he know's he will love the child born from di.We have talked about adoption but feel we need to go down this road first. We now lot's about adoption as our best friends have just adopted a girl aged 3 and a boy aged 5 and we are so happy for them. Perhap's I can not give up my dream of having a baby and dh know's that he will never father his own child and he feel's he is not doing me any favours by using a donor he feels that he is lucky that i love him enough to go through this for both of us. I know donor is not for everyone and i respect that. well hope i have not gone on to much. just wanted to wish you all lot's of luck for your future tmt. from july ann

SQUEW · Post by **SQUEW** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:28 pm

Hi Girls Hope you dont mind me butting in but you all seem to be feeling like me and this does help! Since my 2nd failure I too have felt like hitting the bottle(and have!) perhaps we should all have one big huge girly nite out! Anyway to give you the other side of the coin, our infertility is due to me, and I often feel like my DH would be better off without me and could have a child, which he wants soo much with someone that can give him one. I would have a donor egg(even tho mine appear to be ok, but Dh says he wouldnt want this as wants it to be part of me?!) I tried to discuss adoption and fostering(I needed SOMETHING to work towards) but he said he couldnt believe I was willing to give up so easily, and he cant even comtemplate this yet( I have 2 x failed IVF but 1st was 7yrs ago with ex husband). I can TOTALLY understand wot Caz said, I hate the fact that you cant control ANYTHING about your life, and at least with adoption you can maybe give it your best shot. This whole IVF thing is a total gamble and it seems to me that whatever you do it is a lottery. DH says if you knock on the door enough times eventually you will be let in(his reasoning to continue with IVF). Anyway I am actually going to see the councellor at my clinic so guess the guys in white coats will be over in the near future. Law of averages says 1 of us at least will be pg at some point! Love Sue xxxxxxx PS Hi July Ann fellow SCB glad 2 see you are still around, you still thinking of treatment in january? xx [Edited by SQUEW on 29-Oct-03 13:34]

caz1 · Post by **caz1** » Sun Nov 02, 2003 3:26 pm

Hello girls - by the way SO SO SO SO dont mind you "butting in" - apart from anything else - i dont know about you but its incredibly reassuring to know that I'm not the only one going thru this. As I havent told any friends about WHY we cant get pg, I cant really talk to any of them. They all think (because I've led them to think this)that I'm the reason we cant get PG! Oddly I'm OK with that, but DH would be devasted if people thought it was him - male thing I think -anyway its a life saver to be able to chat to you guys DH is great - but sometimes I dont think he quite GETS IT? I think it took him a while to realise how totaly DEVASTING it was when 1st ICSI failed - not sure he necessaryily quite understoof what you go thru , inside yer head! Dunno about any of you guys - but I do sometimes feel as if I'm doing all the leg work - ringing up clinic- reading about DI etc etc - whereas DH seems to be happy to let it ride- a bit. O dear what a moaner - sorry! Love him to bits really! It just seems all my friends are so "normal". Perfect kids - which they got easily - you know - everyone genetically related to each other that sort of thing! Its funny I NEVER thought this sort of thing would happen to me - I dunno somehow I just thought "people like me dont use DONORS". How WRONG I was. Of course - I didnt ever think to myself "well what sort of people DO use donors then Caz?!". Point being that illness (mumps, epilepsy, tumours etc) - strike randomly dont they? Its just that - I think men never talk about it - so it stays under cover. I guess for all I know one of my "normal" friends with their "normal children" could be a result of donor for all I know?! God- what AM I talking about!!What a ramble! Girls - can we share some views on openness please? I am in a very "keeping private about it " mode at the moment (maybe even wont tell the child)- but am easily swayed.... Do you think you should have made your decision about how you will deal with the subject before you get PG. Or is that just tempting fate - and pointless anyway - as things always change? I just think - telling everyone doesnt necessarily help, and what if the child grows up wanting to keep it secret - he may have lost that option if you have decided to be open from the word go....also (And I think at this point VERY crucially) my DH seems MUCH happier with the idea of keeping it quiet - almost just pretending it didnt happen and continuing as normal. He says he'd find it all easier to acceot that way thoughts?! Love to all - keep in touch - sorry for long ramble! Cazxx

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 9:45 am

Hi Caz If we go the Donor route, this has been an area of great concern to us, the old who to tell thing! If we do have Donor, we will definately tell the child from a relatively young age, I heard a programme on radio 4 not so long ago about a couple who had donor sperm children and their reasons for letting them know from a young age and it made sense. I think there is less chance of resenting you for keeping something from them and it is something that they grow up accepting as part of their life. This may not make any sense but it is what we are thinking at the moment! As for friends, they know there is something up as from the day and hour we got married my DH decided to shout from the roof tops that we were starting a family straight away.......and as nothing has happened.........also the fact we are now not drinking etc etc. DH has told his friends he has some sperm issues, noone would guess in a million years he has Sertoli Cell Only and in fact has absolutely none. As time has gone by, DH thinks he wants to tell a couple of friends about the Donor sperm possibilty.........I personally don't, mainly because I think it puts a different slant on the pregnancy and birth for our friends. When the child is born, I want them to look at him/her and think it is ours without thoughts running through their head about the Donor of the sperm..........and lets face it good friends or not, human beings are curious creatures and they will wander various things, they might not ask but they will think! I might sound mad/paranoid/various other ridiculous things but this is where we stand right now. One thing I do know is if we do tell the friends, it will be before the ICSI/potential Donor op as I don't want a tirade of curiosity questions when I am pregnant with our child. Sorry for the early morning rant!! Hope it makes some sort of sense!! Love to all Jenx [Edited by JenF on 03-Nov-03 01:48]

Lisa_P · Post by **Lisa_P** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 2:14 pm

HI there Caz, Jen, Sue July Ann and Rachael I'm undergoing my first donor iui treatment. Currently in my 2ww and testing a week today. With regards to the 'open or not' issue. We've decided to tell the child (if we're lucky enough to have one!). My dh has a 5 yr old by diui already and 2 months ago we began to tell her about the donor etc - she is very knowledgable for such a young age. OUr decision to do this was that we didn't want her to grow up and find out. (when dh split with his ex-wife she was very cruel and told lots of people

) Also I stongly believe that relationships are built on trust and if she were to find out when she was older than I believe it may harm her relationship with us. This way we hope she'll grow up knowing no different. As to our own situation at the moment it is only dh and I that know we're going the donor route. Quite a few friends know we're going through treatment but just think it's the iui treatment. If i'm lucky enough to get pregnant then I think I will tell my parents, dh's obviously already know, but we'll just have to wait and see. I have a lovely step daugther who I love very much and my dh is a fantastic daddy! Hope you don't mind me butting in. I realise the donor issue is an extremely personal one but thought you may want to hear how we're dealing with it. Good luck to you all Lisa P x x x

caz1 · Post by **caz1** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:39 pm

Hi there thanks so much for replying. SO interested to hear your views. We are still thinking about keeping it very private -maybe not even telling the child. Which I now feel a bit guilty about having heard your very compelling arguments FOR telling. The Thing is I can totally see both sides of the argument - but I just cant help but feel that its EASIER on everyone (maybe just dh and I !) to keep it "hidden", I guess almost just to FORGET IT. If the child never knows then how will they be any the worse off? If the child never knows -- then they wont blurt it out infront of people that you might otherwise NOT have wanted to know (and the child might later regret telling?). DH has also implied to me that he'd find it all easier to accept if he never had to tell teh child (or anyone) that he wasnt their genetic dad..... so thats all fine, but the BIG thing is of course, that the child has a right to know who his/ her real GENETIC father is , dont they? But of course, they cant even know that can they - its anonomous. So even if you told them that they were donor kids - you couldnt then say, but dont worry we CAN tell you who your real father is.....wouldnt that be worse than not knowing anything in the first place I also think that its interesting - something that my doc told me - they did a study in the maternity unit of a very big London hospital a few yrs ago - they were VERY surprised to find out that something like 10-20% of all children born there were NOT the biological child of teh guy who "thought" he was the dad . Of course they never said anything to anyone - so the kids and "dads" were never the wiser - the question is were they any the worse off for not knowing? I kind of doubt it? What do you think.......? do you think it WOULD ahve been better for the doctors to tell the parents then and there? Hard one huh? Am I making ANY sense? You are right I should wait to see if I can get pg before I worry about all this. Jen - do you really think people will wonder about whether the baby is donor or not -I hadnt really thought about that? I did talk to a friend about this (in a sort of "abstract " sense) and said something that made me think.....the way he put it was , that all the donor does it contribute 1 cell to making a person made up of trillions of cells - he just felt that it really really wasnt that important -MUCH MUCH more important was loving and child and give it a good upbrining. And I guess hes right -maybe I'm over analysing -perhaps I should just concentrate on actually getting PG first! Sorry for ranting ! Cazxxxx

Lisa_P · Post by **Lisa_P** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 6:07 pm

Caz No problem for ranting!! we all go there from time to time and this message board is an excellent way to sound off and get advice from others. I've spoken to one of my close friends about growing up not knowing your father. Her father left when she was little, she doesn't know him, her step-dad adopted her and she has nothing to do with her real dad. But she does know who he is. I agree totally that there are loads of familiies today where the kids are growing up without their natural father but beig brought up by excellent daddys. The way I see things and one of the most important factors for me when my dh first told me about his daugther being a d child was to do with being 'open' and medical history. If she were to go to the doctor and asked about familiy history she'll only know 50% of it. Is it fair on her to assume she knows it all if she were not told about her donor? soooooo many questions and thoughts go through our minds and I'm probably only just scrapping the edge because I'm sure that if I become pregnant then i'll have loads more questions and will have to deal with telling my parents etc. Why is life always so complicated? Sorry this message doesn't make much sense and i'm the one rambling now Hope you are all well Lisa x

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