Need Help! Any Help! Please Help

[WallyGator]

Eleven years ago my beautiful wife and I sought out and performed invitro and everything related to it. My urologist was the wonderful Dr. Cappy Rothman the worlds best. My wife's invitro Dr. was Dr. Vermesh out of Woodland Hills, CA. We used the Century City Hospital and Dr. David Hill was the doctor there. She had 16 fertilized eggs very healthy. We had two beautiful blonde, blue eyed baby girls. There were several fertilized eggs left over. After about a year I called the hospital and asked the status of these frozen eggs. I was immediately told (without searching) or even looking up my name on the computer the eggs died and were destroyed. This seemed awfully strange to me. My twins are 11 years old. I am wondering if any couple used this facility for egg donations. The girls were born Valentines day 1996 so the eggs were frozen around 1995 they were implanted. If there is anyone out there that would like some information please e-mail wally@stuntplayers.com I won't cause any trouble. You might have some health concerns and want to know who the real parents of your 11 years old child is. I am dying to know if this hospital sold or used any of our fertilized eggs for another couple. I will pay for any and all DNA research etc. Is this unreasonable for me to ask? We have three of the most gorgeous children a couple could ask for.

Thank you so much. Wally@stuntplayers.com or www.wallycrowder.com

[Welshgirl38]

Hi,

Are u thinking that the clinic may have used your other 13 embryos for other couples? Maybe i have read this wrong but i really dont think they would have done that without your consent. If your other embryo's were not of good quality grading, they would have not been frozen and instead, left to perish. Do you know what grading these other embryos were? Also i thought that frozen embryos were only kept for 10 years - yours would now be 11/12 years old? They would have got in touch with you after 5 years to ask you if you still wanted these, and u have heard nothing? I really think that maybe your embryos were not 'well' enough to be frozen - do you know for deff that they were -
I would deff ring the clinic back and demand that your records be looked up and to know what grading your other embryos were, that way you can determine what has happened.
If what you are saying (i think) that the clinic used your embryos for another couple and you now may have another couple bringing up your child?? I really cant see the clinic doing that, altho i agree, not unheard of. Please get in touch with your clinic again and find out exactly what happened.

I hope you can resolve this matter, please keep us up to date on the outcome.

Becky Xx

[WallyGator]

Yes that was my thought exactly about the clinic. I had called the clinic just after the twins were born about 6 months and asked what happened to the embryos? Thought it was unusual that the gal who answered the phone had such a fast abrupt answer for me. I would have felt better had she said, " I will have to get back to you in a day or two after I look up your records."
After the stuff I read about doctors and clinics and the $$$$$ that they might have been worth I don't really trust anyone. Also after the answer she gave me I don't think I would get a straight answer now.

Thanks so much for your fast reply.

WC

[AuntyPebbles]

Hi there, I understand your confusion, i think all too often clinics are so off when referring to our left over embryo's it's very upsetting, as you say when you look at your three beautiful children it's hard to think all your remaining embies didn't make the grade.

I would call the clinic and try to get a copy of your records i wouldn't explain why of course, but ask for a copy so you have at hand in writing the clinics version of events, Just incase and God forbid you find out any of your embies did get used without your consent.

I hope you can find peace with this, and all the answers you need.

Good luck, Aunty

[WallyGator]

Do you think the clinic would actually tell me if any of the embryos were used or sold? I don't think they would. Just the mire fact that the girl who answered the phone and told me so abruptly that they were "no more" made me wonder. How could someone remember me 6 months later with so many other customers using their clinic? Very strange. Someday there will be a website where people can register dates, times, clinics etc. If my wife and I did have other kids out there we did not know about I bet those children would love to know someday who their real parents were for health reasons.

Thank you for your e-mail.

Wally

[Still trying]

Oh my goodess, poor you.

I agree with both of your replies. I am pretty sure frozen embies are only kept for 10 years but I am also pretty sure they get in touch with you to see what you want to do with them way before that. You should have signed some paper work regarding the freezing of embies which should have said the time the eggs will be frozen for. I now that it is so long ago to remember what you signed etc.

Def. ask for all your records - I am pretty positive that hospitals can not hold any of your records legally as they are yours. All medical notes and any other info on you should be open to view under the data protection act( please check these as facts first though, I only know beause i did a small stint in a hospital and all records are the patients own property, this is why records are usually kept at the end of the bed, I also now work with children as a nursery manager and all files and records of children have to be available to parents on request). I am pretty sure you have many rights.

I know it is hard to imagine they would have done this but I have heard horror stories from hospitals and it is well worth pushing the issue.

I do egg share with my cycles and I know the law keeps changing and of course I'm in England so things may be different, but as an egg donor I have to do so much paper work and the child is legally allowed to come and find me, therefore IF they have given/sold yur eggs they are also not representing the child positively either. Also if I ever have my own children I am supposed to tell them what I have done and they are legally allowed to look for their half sibling.So if it is true you are not able to keep your daughters rights either.

I know its hard when you get a blow like that and we always look for someone to blame, the chances are they have perished but if it makes you feel more settled to dig deeper then I would say go for it.

All the very best of luck.

[WallyGator]

Thank you for your fast reply. Good information.
I am sure I am out of luck.
Maybe someday there will be a national DNA list people can check and see if they have siblings they don't know about.

WC

[Ghost]

Very strange that she did not need to look up your records in order to tell you about your embryos.

I would not even entertain the idea that they sold your embryos. Very, very unlikely. Even if they did, she would have needed to look up your records to confirm it.

What comes to mind are two possibilities. One is equipment malfunction. When this happens, all the stored embryos are lost. If she knew this had occurred in the past 11 years (and it's reasonably likely, given the time span), then she would not need to look up any records to know the answer, since it would apply to everyone with embryos older than the malfunction date. Another possibility is a storage limit policy that might require disposal of old embryos after some time (perhaps out of safety concerns). In either case, they should have actively notified you. Of course, if you've changed address, you might not have gotten the notice.

I agree with Aunty. Get your records and see what they recorded in your chart. Of course, 11 year old charts are often hard to find...probably in a warehouse somewhere.

[PMApsy]

Hello there,

I saw a documentary made here in Quebec not so long ago. The government recently passed a law that strictly forbids anyone to sell eggs or sperm. The clinics now have to rely strictly on altruistic donations and needless to say, it forces many couples to buy sperm or eggs from Mexico or the US... and soon, the government will pass another law that forbids the importation of sold eggs or sperm, limiting the choices even more. Of course, they say it's the clinics' responsibility to promote altruistic donations... yeah, right.

All this to say, that an egg and sperm black market exists here. The people who made the documentary here put a fake ad and had at least 6 women ready to sell them their eggs for 1000-6000$CAN.

If your clinic really used your frozen embryos and gave them to other couples, they did not do it at the clinic. It means that these couples were unable to produce their own embryos, so they absolutely had to document where their embryos came from, what donor. It's the same with all the urban legends about kidney transplant; each transplanted organ has a serial number and a surgeon doing the transplant must document that serial number.

So if it happened, it was not out in the open, it was not in a hospital or fertility clinic. It happened on the black market. And if it happened, it could have happened any year between 1995 and now, and in any part of the world for that matter. With so little information and so many possibilities, I think it is unfortunately impossible to trace your other children, if indeed they were successfully implanted and born. To put it bluntly, I would stop questioning donor-IVF couples if I were you.

However, if your embryos were frozen, your clinic was legally responsible for them. They were bound, legally, to call you before they did anything with them. Before each time they froze our embryos, our clinic had us sign a very detailed document. They had to ask our consent and have us write down what they would do with our embryos if we both died, if we divorce, and so on. Each time, we had to indicate who had legal rights on the embryos. So like the other ladies said, if their machines broke, which is a possibility, they would have had to call you and let you know.

However, there is another possibility, and it's far less dramatic than all the others. Like the ladies said also, frozen embryos are normally kept for 10 years only. You called after 11 years. Had you checked with your clinic if your embryos would automatically be destroyed after 10 years? Was it in the form you signed and you didn't notice? Because in that case, they did not have to call you before your embryos were destroyed; it was just a normal procedure at the clinic that you both had signed for. I personally never checked, but given what they do with files (many clinics destroy files after 10 or 5 years and never call the patient beforehand), I wouldn't be surprised if they did the same with frozen embryos (because they obtain informed consent first, of course, when they are frozen).

If it's what happened, then the lady did not have to check for your name. I'm willing to bet that you mentioned you were a 1995 patient. She just knew that, following the clinic's procedures, your 1995 frozen embryos had been destroyed in 2005.

If it's not that, then do demand a copy of your file, and if there are irregularities, hire a lawyer, because they were legally responsible for your embryos and you have every right to take legal actions.

Hope that helps, and good luck in your search,

Sophie

[pixiesmom]

Wally,
Dh & I have had the same type of feeling regarding any embies we may have had. From day 1 I was uncomfortable with my Dr & on my 1st cycle I didn't have any embies & on my 2nd I only had 2. Well, the 2nd cycle failed & here's the weird part. We decide to use a donor for our 3rd cycle bc the Drs haven't been able to find anything wrong with either of us. Well, the weird part is that this "amazing" donor that we were given made also only 2 embies. I did get pg with 1 & mc. Where are all of the other embies going? We have ins so, the Dr doesn't get as much money from us therefore we thought what if other couples that may have tried many times or didn't have any embies were given some of ours. The Dr might think since we didn't have to pay for these cycles when we ran out of ins money we would have to pay or that bc we already have kids someone else was more deserving. I don't know but it's one of those knawing feelings & no, it's not legal to sell embies but, we have to remember that these Drs love playing God & no one knows what they do in that lab or what research labs they may be selling embies to or whos embies they mix up. There really isn't any major reprocussions for Drs either, other than a lawsuit & you would have to have proof & that's what they have malpractice ins for so, what do they really care. We have 3 kids together so, we know we can make babies there is just something in the way & nobody can figure it out. I switched to a different clinic bc of the neg feelings I was having with that Dr. & I am pg with twins & have 8 frosties. I know where you're coming from & I hope you figure something out.

[WallyGator]

Just a correction. I called the clinic only 6 months after my twins were born not 10 years. The lady very quickly told me they were destroyed without even looking up my name.

Wally

[pixiesmom]

Sounds like a lawsuit to me. Did you fill out a form regarding what to do with the embies?

[PMApsy]

Ah, then it's a different story. Either they lost everybody's embryos during a power/equipment failure, or the receptionist didn't know what she was talking about. Or one of their staff members stole embryos and got caught and fired but they didn't want their clients to know. Unless you thaw the embies, there's no way you can know if they are alive or not when they are frozen.

But think about it. If patients want to keep their embies frozen, it's because there's a high chance they might come back for FET, either because they had a miscarriage, a BFN, or because they want more children. Selling your embies within 6 months of your IVF cycle would have been plain dumb, if you think about it, because the parents were bound to come back to the clinic and ask to use their embryos.

Anyway, I'd really call the clinic again and ask them these questions. There might be a logical explanation. I'd ask them how she could know right away that your embryos were dead. And I'd sure ask them why they didn't call you when they discovered your embryos were dead.

Good luck!

Sophie