Poor embryo quality due to eggs?

[JADE0199]

Hi Kellym - I just met someone on another website that went thru donor egg in the Czech Republic. The website is www.ivfvacation.com incase you are interested. she told me she spent about $10K on the entire trip. Hotel, airfare, IVF, donor egg, everything. She said very good things about it. Sadly though, it ended in a BFN.

Good luck to everyone and much babydust.
Cathy

[JADE0199]

just some information on one of the websites I posted earlier, that I thought was helpful in determining if it was the egg or the sperm causing bad quality embryos.

The eggs in your ovaries also need energy in order to split after fertilization. Your eggs contain mitochondria, which are tiny cell organelles that provide the energy for the egg. Without mitochondria, your egg wouldn’t have the energy to survive. As you age, these mitochondria produce less and less energy. As a result, any egg that is fertilized will eventually run out of energy and will be unable to divide.

What Causes Poor Egg Quality?
Egg quality is greatly affected by your age. In your 20s and early 30s, you should have a large number of good quality eggs available for fertilization. Yes, you will have a few bad eggs too, but the good ones should vastly outweigh them. However, as you age your eggs will begin to decline in quality as well as in number. By the time you are in your late 30s or early 40s, you will probably have more poor quality eggs available than good quality eggs.

Poorer quality eggs can be one of the major causes of infertility in a number of ways. Firstly, poor quality eggs can make conceiving a child very difficult. If a baby is conceived, a poor quality egg can make the difference between carrying your baby to term or losing it in the first few weeks. Many poor quality eggs do not implant properly into the uterus once they are fertilized. Others implant properly but are simply not healthy enough to grow and divide, resulting in a miscarriage.

[snemo]

Kellym

I was wondering if you would consider donor sperm. I know it's a tough decision to make but from what I gathered from your situation it may be a good solution to try out.

Are you guys going to try the egg donor as well? If we go that route, it will be nice to be able to make that decision without having to think about the 35K that we would have to spend. 8K sounds a little bit more decent.

What did your RE recommend you and your DH to pursue next? Do they have another plan for you guys?

The more I read the more I hear about poor quality eggs. That really bothers me now. Though there is a sperm problem, not one RE will attribute to the sperm as the problem bc they are doing ICSI. I just hope that with more studies and more information over time, the REs will note that all factors should be considered before blaming egg quality.

Good luck to you and your DH no matter which path you decide to take. Please keep us informed on what you learn over time. I think this forum has so much information that can help many.

Snemo

[kellym]

So, my DH and I had a huge chat last night about what to do. He isn't convinced that we should assume that the egg quality is poor. Given my age (35 now, 32 when we started) the egg quality should be fine. So, he went on the web last night and found some research that makes us wonder whether it is the sperm and not the egg quality. He had a vasectomy reversal 12 years after the vasectomy. This research indicated that the longer the time between the vasectomy and the reversal the higher the chance of chromosomal abnormalities in the sperm. So maybe that explains our inability to maintain a pregnancy.
We have 3 frozen blasts so, in August we'll go ahead with the blasts but in the meantime we are going to see whether the sperm can be tested for chromosomal abnormalities. We have our meeting with the RE on July 24 and a ton of questions to ask.
While on my 2ww after the frozen transfer in August (assuming our embryos make it through the thaw) I am going to request that my RE monitor my hormone levels because I feel that there is a drastic plunge in my levels during the 2ww. This will at least make me feel comfortable that my body is reacting normally (or not).
If it doesn't work in August then we'll have to decide whether to do donor eggs or donor sperm. Hopefully the sperm testing over the next month or two will help us answer that question. Quite frankly I hope it is the sperm because that would be a whole lot easier. But if it looks to be the eggs then we'll likely be making a trip to Czech for donor eggs.
I will let you know what we decide! It is the unknown that I am finding so hard. I just wish I had my plan in place so that I knew where we were going with all of this.
Best of luck to everyone!
Snemo, when are you going to do your IUI? Are you going to us DH sperm or donor sperm?

[snemo]

Hi Kellym,

I highly doubt it's your eggs. I am sure the sperm has a lot to do with it as well. You can get pregnant with poor eggs too (otherwise most people won't be able to have kids).

My plan so far is to use DH sperm so that we give him a chance. I still have to decide when to start donor sperm, but we will try that as well.

I hope to start IUIs in a month or two. Still ending my m/c and I have to get an HSG next cycle. So it will be awhile.

If you feel that your hormone levels are not to where they should be, I bet you are right. You know your body the best.

Good luck to you and your DH. I know things will get better. I tell myself this everyday but sometimes it gets a little harder.

snemo

[karia]

hi there ladies got more information from you lot that my doc gave me we have never had good embies bio on first ivf and after our 3rd ivf and another bfn we were told that my eggs and hubbys sperm dont like each other and there is niothing they can do for us so our next cycle will be our last

[JADE0199]

Hi girls

If we go that route, it will be nice to be able to make that decision without having to think about the 35K that we would have to spend. 8K sounds a little bit more decent.

Chosing DE doesn't have to be that expensive. You can get matched by your clinic and pay only $3K for a donor (not including medications) totalling around $15-$16 range. Or you can do a shared program which would make the cost of your IVF shared 50%/50%. I suggest speaking with your clinic special svcs coordinator and she can better explain how they're program works and what options they have.

Though there is a sperm problem, not one RE will attribute to the sperm as the problem bc they are doing ICSI.

The reason the doctors do not put any blame on the sperm b/c all the sperm is a carrier. I've read somewhere this analogy - consider the sperm like a ziploc bag containing 23 chromosomes, with a tail. Its job is to get to the egg in time to fertilize it. Once that is accomplished, it is the egg's job to divide and mulitiply equally. So, really, the sperm job is already done once fertilization takes place. And if you do ICSI, then the best quality sperm are already chosen so quality shouldn't be an issue.

In the meantime we are going to see whether the sperm can be tested for chromosomal abnormalities.

Have you both had karyotypes performed on yourselves? This test could indicate a balanced translocation or some other form of chromosomal mismatch within yourselves. You may also want to look into a Sperm DNA Fragmentation Assay (SCSA). My DH had one done after our 3rd m/c and his sperm have always tested excellent.

GOOD LUCK!! And babydust to all.
Cathy

[snemo]

At our clinic CCRM, it's really between 25 and 35K. It's so expensive that it won't even be an option for us, unless we go elsewhere. Thanks for the info though.

I just wonder though, if the sperm quality isn't good from the beginning, will choosing the best one out of the bunch really change anything? They may be better but not really great, right?

Just trying to have hope so that we don't have to use donor eggs yet. One failed IVF and DE as our only choice just seems odd to me. I would think they would suspect something else first, but they didn't. I keep asking what makes them believe that my eggs are bad and they just keep mentioning the fragmentation on all my eggs on day 3. That's all they know.

So I think I may try another RE or just try something else in the meantime. Is there a reason why they keep pushing us to use donor eggs? Is it the success rates that they are worried about?

I too have requested my DH do a SCSA test. So hopefully, we'll find out something when the results come back.

Thanks for the info:) I still can't believe we are going through this.

Snemo

[Ghost]

So I think I may try another RE or just try something else in the meantime. Is there a reason why they keep pushing us to use donor eggs? Is it the success rates that they are worried about?

Bingo.

[kellym]

Snemo,

Has your DH done a SCSA test yet? If so, how long does it take?

I think a second opinion would be a good option in your case. You have very reasonable concerns given the response your RE has had to your situation so it might be worth looking for another clinic - even if just for an opinion.

Best of luck!

[snemo]

Kellym

I went in to see my RE again and he insisted that we don't do a SCSA test because the information will be worthless. I don't think so and to rule out the sperm being a factor is important to me.

I feel that my RE is not supportive of my option to try IUI and donor sperm so I am attempting to find another RE soon.

I really do feel that you and your husband are heading in the right direction. Most infertile couples seek IVF/ICSI with a known male factor but normally find it hard to succeed. Why is that? Could it be that there is really a problem and just inserting the sperm into the egg isn't the resolution. So I say, if your husband is on board with trying donor sperm, you have got a great chance of a BFP.

Good luck with everything and I truly believe that donor sperm is the right way to go. I want to try it so bad but my DH still wants to try his own. I can't say that I don't want to bc I truly want his baby, however, with all the pain of IVF and the m/c I want to make sure that we are trying the best we can. And I believe donor sperm is the answer.

I wish you and your dh the very best and please let me know what direction you guys decide on.

Snemo

Will you please keep me posted on your progess? my personal email is msshino@hotmail.com

All the best! And thanks for listening to my rambling.

[marmey]

Hi Ladies,
On my first IVF (which was a BFN) I had 8 eggs retrieved, 4 fertilized. On a scale of 1-8 (8 being the best), I had a 2,4,5,6 all with fragmentation. My doctor said 6 is normal or average but looking for 8's. The doctor explained to me that each normal cycle, no meds, you may have 300 follicles but only one matures. With IVF you are asking more than one follicle to mature. She is changing my protocol for my next IVF to include menopur. The doctor said one of two things, I either have poor embryos with fragmentation or my embroyos needed more hormone juice (thus the menopur) and to see if this next round I produce better embryos. She said most people do best on the protocol I just went thru, But you do not know how a person is going to respond until you go through the cycle and are able to analyze at the end. I guess my point here is, you could have normal embryos, but your body may not respond well to the meds,thus producing poor quality w/ fragmentation embryos. I have unexplained secondary infertility. I have one healthy child. So I know at one point I had one good egg that made its way into this world!
marmey

[kellym]

Yes, I agree the protocol definitley impacts the quality (or the apparently quality). The first two times I was on a protocol that down regulated me before the arrival of AF and then into the stimulation period. That one didn't work well for me. So, they changed it to the antagonist protocol which didn't start down regulating me until day 8 or 9 of my stimulation period and added menopur. The improvement with my egg quality was fantastic. Each time they said I had perfect looking embryos - at day 3 and at day 5. Still no luck getting pregnant. We have been through 5 cycles now and even though we have 'beautiful embryos' (according to the embryologist) they haven't worked.
My DH is now having his sperm tested for DNA fragmentation. If that comes back okay, it is assumed that it must be my eggs.
It is such a hard process because as you said, Marmey, they only know how your body will react to a protocol after you've been through it. I feel like these past 2 years have been trial and error. At this stage we have a lot of answers but still a lot of unanswered questions.
Good luck! I sure hope the next round if the right protocol for you!