not sure what to say

Grace · Post by **Grace** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:30 pm

Girls I have come on not really knowing what I want to say as I do feel incredibly mixed up about everything. I do want to thank you all so much for the messages you left me on the main board, it is only when you are feeling so low you realise what a difference it makes to feel understood and part of something. I really want to say a big thank you to Alice because I know this part of the board is really down to you. I think it makes a huge differnce knowing there are other people struggling with the same emotions and feelings. I have been getting through the days okay. Today I was n't as tearful as before so that is something. I am an emotional person at even the best of times no stiff upper lip for me, maybe because I am Irish. Anyway, I think it is quite healing to have a good cry. I just feel really numb and empty like I am walking around in a dream like state I suppose. It is weird really because in this situation you go from making your self think positively and trying to be upbeat to the depths of sadness in more or less the space of a few hours. I suppose that is what makes it such a rollercoaster. I suppose I mainly feel like I have no purpose in life now... I know that is going to take time to resolve. We started trying for a family from the time we got married and that is nine years ago. I am 36 so nine years is a huge amount of my life. Even before that I always, always wanted children. I am the eldest of four children and have always been a bit of a mother hen. I really don't know what I can do with those feelings. They are so much part of me and my personality. Maybe we will begin to look at adoption again. I am not sure. I don't think this is the time for decisions. DH is 49 so we would not be able to adopt a young child. I think it is brilliant when people adopt older children but I don't think we could. At one stage we thought seriously about adopting from abroad but then we went on with the fertilty treatmeant. Maybe we will look at it again. I suppose for now the main thing is to get through the next few weeks and months. This is a bit of a jumbled message as that is the way I feel I suppose. You never think this will happen to you, do you? I suppose I have been lucky in my life in that I was brought up in a loving home, with nice things and a good education and then met my husband etc etc everything was going along just nicely. Then there was the bomb shell of infertility but hang on a minute, never mind because then there was IVF to sort us out. That has n't happened though and part of me is very bitter about that. In the beginning I really believed it would work I think I am still in shock that it has n't really. I won't go on and on now but really I am so glad that I can just get things out on here. I do think I need to. I wondered if any of you had been to counselling and if you find it helpful?. Did you go see someone who specialised in infertility? I know you can see them at the clinic and I did once but I think I need more than one session. Thank you for listening to me. Hope you are all okay?? Are you around Lucy? being only a day or two ahead of me you are in my thoughts just now. Bye for now Love Gracexx

alice · Post by **alice** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:03 pm

Hi grace, like you I am not sure of what to say. These days are really hard and you are right in that this is not the time for decsions, but for getting yourself straight. Life is just not fair and you do never think that this will happen to you and i think IVF is bad in that it offers so much false hope and in our case has delayed the process. Like you I have come from a big family and have always thought children would be inevitable, but that is not the case. I hate the thought that it was meant to be like this, because it bloody well wasn't, its just shot luck. In regards to the counselling, I never went coz I find it hard to talk to women who think they know how we feel coz they have read a book, but have got their onw familes and can't possibly understand. I found this site and my friends I made from it my lifeline. You know that we are always here for you and can work through the emotions with you. There is no point in keeping a stiff upper lip if you don't feel like it as it will get you sooner or later. You need to work your own way through, and for gods sake avoid anything that makes you sad at the monent, for example pg women. don't worry about offending anyone as you are the most important person to think about. All i canpromise is that it will get easier. I don;t think the pain will ever go away, but it will get better and you have to go through one day at a time. always here for you alicexxxxx

luce · Post by **luce** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:07 pm

Grace Yes, I am here. All your thoughts and feelings are very familiar, so please don't feel alone. We are taking it day by day by day. Some days are bad, and some are better than that, but I for sure have tearful moments daily. To be honest, largely I try not to think about the long term at the moment, and I concentrate on short term things - I make a plan of things to achieve in the week, even down to doing the washing, and I stick to it. When I've done all I planned for a day, it makes me feel good and lifts my spirits. I haven't been to counselling, but I am looking at joining www.moretolife.co.uk which is a network of people like Pete and I who have opted to live a childfree life after trying to overcome their infertility. I feel a need to get in touch with others like us to share experiences and get ideas on how to move forward. I find myself detached from all friends and family cos whilst they sympathise, they don't fully understand, and this at times makes me angry and frustrated with them. Basically Grace, hang in there. Take each day as it comes and find things that bring you happiness in the short term, be it going to the movies or walking the dog. And come on here and share, good or bad, as there'll always be someone here to share with. Take care of yourself and take comfort in your dh, he is the only one who really knows what you two have been through. Love and hugs Luce xx

Lorraine · Post by **Lorraine** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:31 pm

Dear Grace, Lucy and Alice Hope you girls are ok. I hope I cause no confusion but I thought I would reply here to both this and Lucy's 'facing the future' thread in one - as you were both talking about counselling/support. About the counselling. I am going - once a week at present - which has been hugely helpful. It is hard work though! It gives me the chance to pour out how I am feeling and then the opportunity to try to organise my thoughts. My counsellor is not a specialist in fertility issues (I did once see the counsellor at our clinic after our 2nd cycle failed - but I found it to be of no use - I am not sure any one-off session can ever be anything other than a general advice session) However it has been my experience that I needed more bereavement type counselling (for the children we will never have - we never got pregnant or miscarried - in case it reads like that), and help in dealing with the loss of hope, feelings of failure, and now poor self esteem. (which goes to show the 'dominoe' effect this has had) I think the thing I like most of all about the sessions is I feel I have a safe place where I can really say what is in my heart, even though I tell David everything and I am very close to my mum - I sometimes want to organise and understand what I am feeling first so that I can measure what I tell them AND more importantly don't fatigue them with how I am feeling. I am learning that although I am afraid of being judged by others for failing - it is infact ME that is highly critical of ME. I need to learn to forgive myself and find the 'serenity to accept the things I cannot change'. That is where some of the positive phrases come from - I have positive affirmations posted all over my house!!! On your other thread Lucy you asked where I live - I am on the south east coast (Herne Bay) and last month a new group started in Canterbury for Women facing Fertility issues - I did go and will go again but I am not sure if it will be the right place for me as I need something which obviously addresses the 'life after' but it was a very powerful experience just sitting in the same room as women who are involuntarily childless (I like the way you defined it) - as I have never met anyone before (not that I ACTUALLY spoke at the meeting!!!!) As for books - I havent found any books to help - I don't even know of any but I will visit the web address you posted - let me know what info they send you. Wishing you all well Lots of Love from Lorraine xxxxxx

Alison · Post by **Alison** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:30 pm

Hi Grace - just wanted to pop in and say hi. You and Lucy are very much in my thoughts. I'm really interested to read the discussion with Lorraine about counselling. Its something I've thought about and feel that if in a month's time I'm on this side of the board "full time" its something I'll want to do. I posted a while ago (drunkenly!) about feeling that I was bottling things up and being cheerful and optimistic even when I don't feel like that, and that it would do me some good to be able to speak absolutely freely without fear of hurting Julian (or anyone else's) feelings. If you find someone good do share! I'm sure you're right not to try to make any major decisions right now. Over the next weeks and months I'm sure you'll feel instinctively that there's a right way for you to go, just as you've come to the decision not to have further fertility treatment. Thinking of you and sending you lots of love Alisonx

Grace · Post by **Grace** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 7:33 pm

Hi Girls As always thank you for sharing your feelings and ideas, all of this is helping me enormously. Your thougts on counselling are very interesting, I can see what Alice means about trying to talk to someone who has no experience or idea from where we are coming from. The thing is we are all quite vunerable are n't we? so it is important to get the right person or else could end up even feeling worse. I know I too have a real fear about being judged by others and really have to grasp that it is not important what others think only what I myself think. I often feel on the "edge" of things because we don't have children. I know some people pity us but often you get the feeling that people sort of envy you as well. In being envious they can be really hurtful. I know lots of people find bringing up small children really difficult and I know that it is not always easy. Sometimes my friends with children almost make me feel bad because I have freedom and I can spend my money and clothes and nice things. If only they knew how I really feel. Even with close friends I sometimes find myself playing down how awful I truly feel. I suppose what I am trying to say is that I hate feeling different to most of the people I know. I suppose as a human being most of us have a need to conform and we are not confroming and therefore feel like an outsider. I really do not want to loose friendships, or the closeness I have with a few people, but by not sharing in this fundemental and huge part of their lives I feel I am loosing this closeness. I am hoping as time goes on I won't feel this as strongly. I am getting through the days. I have gone back to work. I am glad of it in alot of ways because it makes me think of other things even for a little while. I am feeling incredibly tired though. I think it is just a reaction to everything. While on treatmeant I was not sleeping very well sometimes hardly atll. Now my sleep is alot better which I am grateful for. Still not thinking of the bigger picture, just small steps. Basically just have to get over this cycle I suppose. How is everyone else getting on?? How are you Lucy? and Lorraine? Alison, I am so hoping this one works out for you. You are in my thoughts alot. As is everyone else. Keep writing everyone we all need each other. Love Gracexx

ogr1 · Post by **ogr1** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 2:28 am

i dont know what to say but i wanted to at least let you know that i care..i get amazed by all of you. love becky

luce · Post by **luce** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 5:06 pm

Hi Girls Just popped in to check everyone is OK. Grace, I read your last post and had to share it with Pete - the feelings you have about your friends are so familiar, and we too feel like outsiders and hate being different. Nothing much has changed for us, apart from the fact that I don't cry as regularly as I did. We are clinging to each other for comfort as we haven't found it elsewhere, and that makes the days of the week hard, when we're not with each other. I feel terribly isolated from most people I know, friends and family. I am slowly trying to make contact with those I think may be most supportive going forward, but it's hard. I know it's hard for friends and family to understand, and I wish I had a guidebook for them to help them know how to handle us - maybe I'll write one! I find that in lots of cases I don't have any conversation in me - Infertility/IVF has dominated our lives for the past 5 years, and now I'm empty. I haven't gone back to work, so haven't got that to talk about, and I'm not ready to talk about plans for the future with anyone other than Pete....it's all a bit weird really. So, we are still handling it all day by day, and thankfully have our holiday to look forward to! We leave on Friday to Hong Kong and Cambodia - we used to live in Hong Kong and it's the first time we'll have gone back there together since leaving 6 years ago. I'm hoping that we don't come back down to earth with a bump when we get back. Whilst on holiday we're going to try to make a list of all the things we'd like to do as future careers - all the things we've ever thought of, no matter how ridiculous. We're then going to start eliminating them, one by one, to get a clearer picture of what the most realistic dreams are. We're not going to make any decisions based on this, we just want to try and get down to a shortlist of possibilities! We're also still tackling the decorating. Today I tried my hand at plastering (only about a 2 foot square area) and I did an OK job. I celebrated this achievement, as I seem to all small achievements at the moment. I received some information from More To Life last week and sent off my membership form on Saturday. I am interested to see what they can offer, and am considering starting a group here in Hertfordshire myself, as I'm sure there must be other ladies like me in the area. My last few words today are some advice from a friend, which seems to work: Keep Breathing Take care Love Luce xxx

Grace · Post by **Grace** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 5:48 pm

Hello Everyone Luce, I really want to wish you and Pete a very, very happy holiday. You sound like a wonderful couple and you truly deserve this break. Try not to think of what is will be like when you come back just enjoy every moment. Yes, I know what you mean about people not saying the right thing, or not saying anything or saying something completely stupid. In the past I have had real issues with my Mother-in Law over this subject. She has been completely insensitive at times really horrible in fact. DH eventually had to have very strong words with her and they fell out for a while. We did n't tell her about this past attempt, it has made it alot easier. I gnerally find her a difficult person anyway so alot of the time I avoid or ignore her this is unusal for me because I do get on with most people. My own Mother has been great. By a strange irony I was born after six years of trying. I think she understands alot of what I have been through because of her own experience. Mindyou luckily she ended up with four children in the end, so some of that terrible anguish has been quashed. I like you am not crying so much now but it is still very hard. I am not able to face up to the future just yet so in a way I know I am in a state of denial. Never mind I suppose I just can't rush things. I think that is a great idea about starting up a group in your area. I live in Kingston, south west London/Surrey. I don't know if there is anything like that here. Well done on the decorating. It does n't help that the days are so dark and dreary at this time of the year does it? I have been tidying up a bit in the garden and it has been quite enjoyable. We have some friends coming for lunch on Saturday they have an eight month old baby. To be honest I don't know if it is good idea in one way but in another I know I have to start seeing people and children at some stage so I might as well go for it. I think it will be okay. I only started out to say a few things and here I am going on and on. Have a lovely, lovely time Luce. Look forward to hearing all about it when you get back. Look after each other. Love Gracexxx

beckym · Post by **beckym** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:57 am

Hi everyone Just popped on here to wish Luce a very good holiday. Didn't know you had lived in HK. I lived there too for three years from 1992-1995. Worked on the new airport project. Haven't been back since the hand-over. They say it's changed quite a bit so should be really interesting. Have always wanted to go to Cambodia but as you know it was a bit dangerous when we were out there. Presume you are going to Angkor Wat? Will be fabulous and great to get away from this horrible weather. Think you have a very good plan re discusing all your career options when you are on holiday. There's a good book called "What colour is your parachute?" which is good for generating ideas. I think my dream job would be to be a scuba master in Malaysia. Sounds crazy doesn't it? dh and I have also talked about doing VSO for a couple of years if these next two attempts don't work out. Grace, sorry your mother in law isn't being very supportive. Some people just don't get it do they? Sometimes you have to give people a wide bearth at certain critical life points. I am glad that you are taking it all one step at a time and starting to have friends around. When we heard that we might have lost the embies last weekend we were due to go and se my sister-in-law and her new baby and I insisted on still going which I am pleased I did as it wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it would be. It was worse seeing her when she was pregnant. Funny that. anyway, all my love. beckym xxx

fi · Post by fi » Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:40 pm

hi girls, well i just wandered over here in search of grace and just to give you a big hug. not sure if we ever actually cycled with each other but we always seemed to have been in touch on the board. i just wanted to say that i thought i was losing it, until reading this strand and just feeling so much the same as everyone here. we have not given up on ivf yet, i will keep going until they stay stop, but its getting harder being surrounded by everyone pregnant around us. the last treatment (positive but ectopic and lost left tube) really took the stuffing out of me/us. just a little question - i feel we have the strongest marriage but this time the male/female approach has been so different - i feel i have really dwelt on the pain and emotion, whereas dh is get on with it and life and move on. does anyone else find this? he said i might need to speak with someone since i was sooooo sooo focused on the whole baby thing. just wondered!? anyway, hugs love fi

Grace · Post by **Grace** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:34 pm

Hello Fi Thanks for looking me up. No, we have n't exactly cycled at the same time but as you say we have spoken lots of times. Ido remember your last cycle very well and can imagine you must have had a very difficult time afterwards. I noticed on the other side that you are starting a cycle early next year. You are right it does not get any easier as time goes by. I suppose some of the exitement of earlier cycles gets a bit lost and you begin to know the ropes so well. Still I will certainly be hoping that this is the one for you Fi. I do know what you mean about the difference in the male and female approach. Like you, and most of us on here we are blessed with a very happy marraige. DH is very supportive and incredibly sad when things did n't work out. However, he has a much greater capacity of just getting on with things and moving on. Perhaps it is down to difference in personality as I am alot more emotional and much more of a worrier where as he is laid back. I think men often hide their pain deep inside and often try to be "brave" for us. It is probably because they feel they should protect us in a way. My DH said when we were chatting about it recently that he only realised how deeply upsetting it was for me after we had been through a few cycles. I think he was in problem solving mode and just felt well this has n't worked let's move on now to the next plan or whatever. He really had n't realised the deep, deep feeling of loss and sense of sadness I had felt. I suppose sometimes having a baby becomes so important that we can loose sight of our relationship and just other things in general. I know I have certainly done this alot. However, I really don't think you can act in any other way when you are pursuing this goal. Anyway I do think this is a very intresting topic and am sure some of the other girls will have some other experiences of the whole male/female approach. Very glad to hear from you Fi and hope to catch up again very soon. Take good care of yourself now. Love Gracexx

Tracey S · Post by **Tracey S** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:36 pm

Fi just popped in to crash this thread and give you a huge hug - glad to see you up and at it again -this side has been wonderful - I pop in when I feel like it and nobody minds! DH has been fab at losing our baby at 20 weeks - took it more emotionally than me especially when people assumed he wouldn't as he has 2 children but he finds it worse as he never was allowed to enjoy them as the ex shouted all the time - infact she still does - she can make toast just by breathing on it - oops slap my wrists. Some men do just find it easier to plunge back in to work etc but they hurt deep inside. Enough of my waffling rubbish. Love to you and Grace Tracey xxx

fi · Post by fi » Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:53 pm

awwww girls, you make me all happy and glowy inside, grace you should be on commission for being the best supportive buddie and tracey good to hear from you, and I have been thinking of you. as i get set to rollercoast again, I hope I can still come over this side, as at the mo i feel in between this and the general forum, and will keep going at the ivf til i completely lose my marbles. well guys, hugs and thoughts, will be up for a chat sometime!? love fi

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