Trad Chinese Medicine for IVF and women over 35

Discussion forum for those particularly interested in IVF and embryo transfer including frozen embryo transfer.
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Rinnie
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Trad Chinese Medicine for IVF and women over 35

Post by Rinnie »

Hi everybody!

I had my first IVF fail last month as I had 6 eggs fertilize but they weren't great quality & grew too slowly.
Because I'm older I tried to find out what I could do to improve my egg quality & found a lot of people directed to donor eggs with no hope of using their own.
I've always been open to other forms of healing so friends directed me to see a very well known TCM (Trad Chinese Med ) doctor here in Los Angeles. I also started reading some books on the subject.

This philosophy is remarkable!!...I can't wait to see if it works :)

Basically in TCM, they believe the eggs start at the same quality as a woman in her 20's, but the vessel in which they develop for 150 days (our older bodies) is flawed. What happens in older women is that the kidneys and spleen etc. become weaker. Since we need those organs to survive, the body & hormones direct the blood & nutrients away from the ovaries, (as we don't need those to survive), and over to the more vital organs like the kidney.
This results in less blood and nutrients to the ovaries, effectively starving the eggs.
IVF can stimulate more eggs, but can't make them better quality. They say it's like trying to get a starving ox to work...you don't beat it, you feed it.
So TCM tries to feed the ovaries by strengthening the kidney, spleen or whatever is weak with acupuncture and a mix of herbs. When those organs are strong, it makes sense that the hormones would then be taken out of panic mode to save the kidney and direct blood and nutrients back toward the ovaries. The eggs are then nourished and develop properly.
Acupuncture in itself also directs blood to the uterus and ovaries.

I am doing 3 months of accu twice a week, brewing herbs, and eating the right foods to see if this works before my next IVF in May. I have no idea what will happen, but the philosophy is so much more positive than picturing shriveled crusty eggs, that I can't help but do it. IVF is expensive so i want to do all I can. I know several women who have done it and increased their egg quality tremendously and become pregnant in their 40's. I know everybody rushes to do cycle after cycle but I think it's so important to really give your body a chance to strengthen like this & recover it's own rhythm. It's hard to wait, but if better quality is a distinct possibility ..why not?

I encourage every older woman to do this before resorting to donor eggs as my doctor says you can lower your biological age by 5 years. ( See an actual TCM doctor though, not just a registered acupuncturist)
For younger women, the acupuncture can help with implantation as the stims thin out the uterus & it sends extra blood there and calms contractions.

I'm healthy & healthy weight etc., but so far, I feel even better...more energy & sleeping better. I'm excited, and although my RE isn't convinced about the whole thing he knows of my TCM doctor & is going to work with him through the cycle. So I feel covered on all sides.

Has anyone else done the full TCM program & had success? I would love to hear any stories...good and bad.....this is such a learning process. :)


Rin
Me: 43 Dh 60
IVF#1 no ET..poor egg quality...then AP & herbs
IVF #2 BFP chem IVF #3 clinic dosing error so had to switch to IUI, BFP!! A Boy!
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Anie
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Post by Anie »

Hi.

I just want to say thank you for sharing this information.
It is very interesting and it all makes sense...

I had 1 cycle with no fertilized eggs; my 2nd cycle was a BFN.
I have just started doing acupuncture for my next cycle which will be a FET and i'm really hoping that it will help.

I wish you too a BFP.

Anie
Anie :) Me 32, DH 34
1st IVF : Aug/07 - 6eggs but no fertilization :(
2nd ICSI: Oct/07 - test:22/Nov=BFN :(
3th ICSI: July/08; Testing:5th Sept-BFP :D

[img]http://tickers.TickerFactory.com/ezt/d/1;18;34/st/20090515/dt/5/k/dc49/preg.png[/img]
kbat
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Post by kbat »

I've done the accupuncture w/ the last 2 cycles. I do believe that the accupuncture did help my eggs become better quality. I did not get more quantity, but the quality seemed much better and my cycles were shorter--ie less time on the stimulating meds.

I was thinking about doing the herbs; however, my clinic told me not to do them because they feel that they can be toxic to the embryos. I had put out a thread regarding doing the herbs, and some said they used them and some didn't due to the possible toxicity of the herbs to the embryos. Also, my accupuncturist who is from China, never recommended it one way or another.

Good luck to you. I hope that the accupuncture and Chinese herbs help you w/ your dream!!

Lots of baby dust to you!!!
ME--42 DH 41
Rinnie
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Post by Rinnie »

Anie & Kbat
Thanks for the good thoughts! Lots of baby dust all around :)

Kbat, I asked about the herbs too & there seem to be varying opinions on them. I'll see if they get my FSH down on the 2 or 3 day test, and then figure out if I should stop them when I start stimming. My TCM doctor says they vary the types and dosage at different times in the cycle and that toxicity isn't an issue. We've had to tailor the program to me anyway, as I had a slight reaction to a couple of herbs. He's supposed to be one of the best and has helped celebs & has a fertility book coming out in April but I'm still cautious. They are potent, and I guess in the wrong hands could be a problem, so we'll see.
I haven't talked to my RE about them during IVF cycle yet.

All of this is such a learning process!!

Rin
Me: 43 Dh 60
IVF#1 no ET..poor egg quality...then AP & herbs
IVF #2 BFP chem IVF #3 clinic dosing error so had to switch to IUI, BFP!! A Boy!
[img]http://tickers.TickerFactory.com/ezt/d/2;31;28/st/20090706/n/Riley+William/dt/-3/k/3cc9/age.png[/img]
Samara1
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Post by Samara1 »

I would be reluctant to take herbs. Discuss with your RE. They can interact with your fertility meds and impact your cycle.

I had acupuncture for years. It cured my migraines, gave me relief from sinusitis etc.

There are studies that show Acupuncture can improve implantation rates. I must admit I gave up due the cost about 6 months ago, so cannot say whether or not it impacted this BFP. Perhaps it had an impact on egg quality (no studies have suggested TCM has an impact on egg quality).

Regardless of what studies suggest or don't suggest, I found it very relaxing and do believe it has a positive impact (for me ) physically and mentally. However I would definitly discuss the herbs with your dr. They can be very potent and have may unknown contraindications.

Best of luck.
Samara
m/c @ six weeks
IVF#1 - BFN
FET#1 - BFN
IVF#2 - Chem
Fet#2,3,4 - BFN
IVF#3 - BFP - m/c @ 8 weeks
IVF#4 - 16dpo beta = 280. Two Heartbeats - Apple & Orange.
9weeks+6days - found 1 hb on home doppler 180 bpm.
Rinnie
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Post by Rinnie »

Thanks Samara

I agree with you on the herbs....they are very potent. My TCM doctor is a fertility specialist & has worked with my RE a number of times so I'm sure they've got it down & I'll speak thoroughly with both of them when we get to that point.

If you had acupuncture for years, I wouldn't be surprised if your body was still balanced even after stopping. That's so wonderful that you got a BFP...congratulations.
Me: 43 Dh 60
IVF#1 no ET..poor egg quality...then AP & herbs
IVF #2 BFP chem IVF #3 clinic dosing error so had to switch to IUI, BFP!! A Boy!
[img]http://tickers.TickerFactory.com/ezt/d/2;31;28/st/20090706/n/Riley+William/dt/-3/k/3cc9/age.png[/img]
Love
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Location: Jersey

Post by Love »

Hi Rinnie,

I wanted to thank you for starting this thread :D

I will be turning 42 next Saturday and it seems like it is hitting me like a ton of bricks ... only because of my trying to have another child, each year seems to get louder I too have delayed my next IVF cycle (until April/May) to improve my egg quality ... I did my 1st IVF cycle in Sept/Oct which sadly ended in BFN .... that is why I felt that I should take a breather and get my body back into shape .. I'm not over weight ... just needed to give my body a break from all the IVF drugs)

I have been doing acupuncture since my last IVF cycle (started it 2 weeks before transfer) and I began taking herbs in November and have noticed a significant difference in my cycles ... my acupuncturist specializes in infertility and is now pregnant herself (from taking the herbs alone ... her 1st child was IVF)

I wish you all best

a round of baby dust for everyone!!!!

Love
Me: 41, DH: 47
2 wonderful boys 16 & 12 yrs. (concieved natural)
Clomid w/ IUI: #1-4/07 #2-5/07 (BFN)
IVF:#1 Sept/07 Start-(acupuncture)(BFN)
kbear4211
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Post by kbear4211 »

I am doing Acupuncture this cycle. Unfortunately, my first cycle resulted in a BFN. My RN stated that she does feel it can help, especially because it relaxes you.

I asked her about herbs, and she advised that I should stay away from the herbs, as they do not know how they would interact w/ the fertility medicines.
TTC 3 1/2 YEARS
ME - 41/ DH - 39
First IVF Jan '08: BFN / 2nd IVF: March '08 - BFP!
Katie born 12/4/08

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Love
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Post by Love »

Hi again Everyone,

I forgot to mention in my last post ......

I have been taking the herbs since November ... however, once I begin taking the stimulating drugs I will NOT be taking any herbs ... My RE said that it would be fine for me to take the herbs when I am on the BP, but once I start the stimulating drugs the herbs can interfere with what the stimulating drugs are trying to do


Sprinkles of baby dust

All the best to you,
Love
Me: 41, DH: 47
2 wonderful boys 16 & 12 yrs. (concieved natural)
Clomid w/ IUI: #1-4/07 #2-5/07 (BFN)
IVF:#1 Sept/07 Start-(acupuncture)(BFN)
Rinnie
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Location: Los Angeles

Post by Rinnie »

Love Thanks...I've become so passionate about it.
That's so exciting that you've notice a difference in your cycles!
I bet this next go around you'll notice a huge difference. My 2nd AF after IVF is due at the end of the week & I'm dying to see if it's different.
I'm so much calmer & I feel centered if that makes sense.
I really hope more women fully explore TCM before they give up.

When are you starting stims in April? I think I'll end up starting at the end.

Rin
Me: 43 Dh 60
IVF#1 no ET..poor egg quality...then AP & herbs
IVF #2 BFP chem IVF #3 clinic dosing error so had to switch to IUI, BFP!! A Boy!
[img]http://tickers.TickerFactory.com/ezt/d/2;31;28/st/20090706/n/Riley+William/dt/-3/k/3cc9/age.png[/img]
Love
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Location: Jersey

Post by Love »

Rinnie wrote:Love Thanks...I've become so passionate about it.
That's so exciting that you've notice a difference in your cycles!
I bet this next go around you'll notice a huge difference. My 2nd AF after IVF is due at the end of the week & I'm dying to see if it's different.
I'm so much calmer & I feel centered if that makes sense.
I really hope more women fully explore TCM before they give up.

When are you starting stims in April? I think I'll end up starting at the end.

Rin
Hi Rinnie,

I'm not exactly sure when I will be starting my stims yet ... we\hen I find out I'll let you know ... I did just go for BW and my FSH level was 11.4 :cry: (the highest it's ever been) and my last AF was sparse
my previous FSH levels were:
Jan. 07 - 8.1
Aug. 07 - 7.1
Sept. - Oct. IVF cycle
Nov. 07 - 6.4
I began the taking the TCM in Nov. 07 (to help improve egg quality)
I told my acupuncturist of my latest FSH #'s & AF cycle and she is adjusting my herbs (which I need to go pick up now)

Anyway, I know what you mean about feeling "centered" .... since I've been taking them I have felt more "at peace"

All the best to you,
Love
Me: 41, DH: 47
2 wonderful boys 16 & 12 yrs. (concieved natural)
Clomid w/ IUI: #1-4/07 #2-5/07 (BFN)
IVF:#1 Sept/07 Start-(acupuncture)(BFN)
kbat
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Post by kbat »

Well since I had my last IVF cycle--most likely--I did call my acupuntrist who also is tcm doctor and he suggested herbs also since I will not be doing IVF. I did get pregnant once naturally, so I am hoping that it will still help.

I may seek out a 3rd opinion around May or June (after my job ends and we get back from a "mini-vacation") just to make sure I've exhauseted all my options. But w/ the cost being so high (all 6 IVF were covered 100% - copay of $15 or $20 (went up in July), not entirely sure I'll proceed. Just don't have that kind of money hanging around.

I'll let you know how it goes!!!

BTW--when you "brew" the herbs what's involved? ARe they nasty?
ME--42 DH 41
Rinnie
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Post by Rinnie »

kbat
My tcm doctor told me of some stories of women doing herbs & the acupuncture twice a week in prep for IVF & then they just got pregnant on their own beforehand. They were in their 40's. So it is possible, but you have to keep at it every week...takes the effort to get your body balanced.

Yes, the herbs are varying degrees of nasty :) depending on the formulation. They have changed mine a few times as I appear to be sensitive to roots for some reason & i feel anxious. You do get used to the taste though & actually end up craving them in a way.:shock:
Each bag is for 2 days, so you end up cooking every 2 days. You boil them in a ceramic , not metal, container and strain them. Then drink a total of 3 cups a day. In my clinic they do have them in powdered form for travelling , but those aren't quite as potent apparently. The 7th day you take off to give the body a rest.

I have to say, I do feel more centered and yet with more energy if that makes sense. I can feel slight changes in my body. I feel like it will make some difference, I'm just not sure what.

Don't give up kbat, and definately give this a try even if you don't do IVF.

Rin
Me: 43 Dh 60
IVF#1 no ET..poor egg quality...then AP & herbs
IVF #2 BFP chem IVF #3 clinic dosing error so had to switch to IUI, BFP!! A Boy!
[img]http://tickers.TickerFactory.com/ezt/d/2;31;28/st/20090706/n/Riley+William/dt/-3/k/3cc9/age.png[/img]
kbat
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Post by kbat »

I go in on Monday to find out what the deal is. I will continue w/ acupuncture and I will see what they say about the herbs. Hoping that this will be helpful to my situation.

Kara
ME--42 DH 41
Rinnie
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Post by Rinnie »

I just wanted to update on my TCM journey as I just did my day 3 blood test in prep for IVF next month.
I've been doing acupuncture for 2 months now, twice a week, along with the herbs and some diet changes.

3 yrs ago I had a 7.2 FSH, and the last 3 times over the last year I've been around 10...9.8, 10.16 & 10. This time I had a 6.4 FSH with Estradiol within the acceptable range & similar to the last times.

6.4....WOW! :lol: I mean, I know it's only one indicator but it seems like the TCM has really helped. AF is different too, with no cramping, hardly any clots & much brighter oxygentated blood.

So I start BCP tonight with IVF in May & believe me I'm keepin on keepin on with the TCM. Wish me luck :)

Rin
Me: 43 Dh 60
IVF#1 no ET..poor egg quality...then AP & herbs
IVF #2 BFP chem IVF #3 clinic dosing error so had to switch to IUI, BFP!! A Boy!
[img]http://tickers.TickerFactory.com/ezt/d/2;31;28/st/20090706/n/Riley+William/dt/-3/k/3cc9/age.png[/img]
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