Hello all,
I was wondering if anyone out there could help me. Im in the 2ww at the moment and am obsessing about a decision we made on the day of ET. We made 9 embryos from 19 eggs collected from 27 follicles. Stupidly we kind of expected to get some frosties but, although we thought the grades were ok (3grade 2s, 3grade2.5s and 3 grade3s) the embryologist told us that although we could have our fresh go ( our first cos I was overstimmed last time and nearly this time) all the other embryos were not good enough to freeze!!! Their freezing critera is grade 2 or above. Since we had a freeze all last time we had no idea of the grades of our first 14 frosties ( they are frozen before their first division which does mean they survive freeze/thaw better) but 100% survived thaw and all were acceptable grades ( lowest a 3) We actually got +ves from 2.5s twice!! ( but mc) So I was gobsmacked to have to discard so many at around this grade. In the end we begged/ dug our heels in and they did let us freeze the best 3 "runneres up" (they noted down this was against their advice.... we are probably on the staff dart board now!)We are desperate to get as many chances out of each go since I seem to overstimm so easily and also mc
Has anyone had a similar experience?
Does anyone know of clinics without such high criteria?
Has anyone heard of success stories of FETS with similar grade which were frozen after reaching the 2-4 cell stage?
Love and good luck to us all
Annie
To freeze or not??
Hi Annie
I, like you over stimm every time and we have always got lots of eggs and embies too, but.........................we have never been able to freeze.
1st treatment - 12 eggs, 8 embies, 2 put back, the 6 left were not good enough to freeze.
2nd treatment - 12 eggs, 10 embies, 2 put back, 8 left again not good enough to freeze.
3rd treatment - 15 eggs, 13 embies, 2 put back, 11 left were once again not good enough to freeze.
I can't remember what grades they were as my notes are somewhere where I can't find them (we are decorating!) They were just not good enough which really upset me each time. When you think how many embies you get you don't imagine that they all will not reach the freezing process. We have our ET at the Bridge Center Clinic in London and they have always advised us not to freeze and it's saved us money but I would rather find out WHY they don't reach the grade. I will be asking lots of questions on my 4th treatment about it thats for sure. We have always been told that fresh cycles are best anyway but there have been a lot of +tives with FET's too so who knows what is better. I would just for once like to have some frozen for my own piece of mind. As I am sure you do too.
When do you test? Good luck
Love Dagny xkx
I, like you over stimm every time and we have always got lots of eggs and embies too, but.........................we have never been able to freeze.
1st treatment - 12 eggs, 8 embies, 2 put back, the 6 left were not good enough to freeze.
2nd treatment - 12 eggs, 10 embies, 2 put back, 8 left again not good enough to freeze.
3rd treatment - 15 eggs, 13 embies, 2 put back, 11 left were once again not good enough to freeze.
I can't remember what grades they were as my notes are somewhere where I can't find them (we are decorating!) They were just not good enough which really upset me each time. When you think how many embies you get you don't imagine that they all will not reach the freezing process. We have our ET at the Bridge Center Clinic in London and they have always advised us not to freeze and it's saved us money but I would rather find out WHY they don't reach the grade. I will be asking lots of questions on my 4th treatment about it thats for sure. We have always been told that fresh cycles are best anyway but there have been a lot of +tives with FET's too so who knows what is better. I would just for once like to have some frozen for my own piece of mind. As I am sure you do too.
When do you test? Good luck
Love Dagny xkx
Me 38 DH 40
1st 2nd & 4th IVF/ICSI -ve
3rd +ve DD Katelyn born @ 24wks & sadly died
5th +ve m/c 9wks
6th +ve Twins Sadly DD Leah stillborn @20wks and DS Kieran born @22wks but sadly died too
7th +ve - DD Chloë Mae born @38wks our precious miracle
1st 2nd & 4th IVF/ICSI -ve
3rd +ve DD Katelyn born @ 24wks & sadly died
5th +ve m/c 9wks
6th +ve Twins Sadly DD Leah stillborn @20wks and DS Kieran born @22wks but sadly died too
7th +ve - DD Chloë Mae born @38wks our precious miracle
Dear Dagny,
thanks for your reply it does put our situation into perspective (although still in a quandry over whether we should have dug our heels in or not) I feel there is sometimes a tension between whats best for you personally and what is best statistically for a population/ clinic. I dont mean that the clinics have bad motives just that we quirky types need slightly different treament. I just feel that FETs are more relevant if you over respond each time and are therefore in danger of either being stopped short of ET or of becoming seriously ill.
Like I said before we got 2 positives from FETs but mcd at nearly 6 weeks each time . After mc screening all they found was a slight deficiency in one anticoag factor( only slightly outside the norm range ) and a slight autoimmunity response ( very very slight). So as far as I can tell and from what the consultant said neither loss was linked to the fact that they were FETs. I am taking 75 mg aspirin each day this time (consultant suggestion) and took 2 days bedrest after ET in case it helps (my idea!!).
Test date is April13th so going slightly mad as we speak
love and good luck to you Annie
Ps to try to cover all bases I begged for tubal surgery last year as well (it kept me busy whilst our clinic in West Yorks was semi closed down for refurb )and although both tubes were fairly bad grade they both let dye through !!! So although I know that actually regaining full function is rare thats another slight odds game I am prepared to play ( and it was free!!!)
thanks for your reply it does put our situation into perspective (although still in a quandry over whether we should have dug our heels in or not) I feel there is sometimes a tension between whats best for you personally and what is best statistically for a population/ clinic. I dont mean that the clinics have bad motives just that we quirky types need slightly different treament. I just feel that FETs are more relevant if you over respond each time and are therefore in danger of either being stopped short of ET or of becoming seriously ill.
Like I said before we got 2 positives from FETs but mcd at nearly 6 weeks each time . After mc screening all they found was a slight deficiency in one anticoag factor( only slightly outside the norm range ) and a slight autoimmunity response ( very very slight). So as far as I can tell and from what the consultant said neither loss was linked to the fact that they were FETs. I am taking 75 mg aspirin each day this time (consultant suggestion) and took 2 days bedrest after ET in case it helps (my idea!!).
Test date is April13th so going slightly mad as we speak
love and good luck to you Annie
Ps to try to cover all bases I begged for tubal surgery last year as well (it kept me busy whilst our clinic in West Yorks was semi closed down for refurb )and although both tubes were fairly bad grade they both let dye through !!! So although I know that actually regaining full function is rare thats another slight odds game I am prepared to play ( and it was free!!!)
Hi Annie
I have had both my tubes removed. After I had my 1st treatment my consultant decided it was the best thing to do as in blocked tubes you can get trapped fluid which may be detrimental to a developing embryo in the uterus. I was really upset making the decision as you always pray for that miracle pregnancy but the odds on me getting an ectopic from IVF were higher than me getting pregnant naturally. There was no way I would ever get a natural pregnancy.
Have you got any fluid in your tubes as that could have been a reason for your MC's? You say that the dye came through so it is unlikely you have fluid trapped but it's worth investigating if you haven't already. But you won't need to as this time it will work, won't it?? PMA, PMA, PMA.
I personally would like to have the chance to freeze but the odds of defrosting are 50/50 and so they always advise against it if you don't have many to freeze but like I said I have always had a good number of embies. They are the experts but not the ones getting OHSS each time!!
I am going to speak to my consultant about baby asparin although as I got PG before he may say 'No'. It's hard to know what's best isn't it?
Best of luck for 13th April, my fingers are crossed.
Love Dagny xkx
I have had both my tubes removed. After I had my 1st treatment my consultant decided it was the best thing to do as in blocked tubes you can get trapped fluid which may be detrimental to a developing embryo in the uterus. I was really upset making the decision as you always pray for that miracle pregnancy but the odds on me getting an ectopic from IVF were higher than me getting pregnant naturally. There was no way I would ever get a natural pregnancy.
Have you got any fluid in your tubes as that could have been a reason for your MC's? You say that the dye came through so it is unlikely you have fluid trapped but it's worth investigating if you haven't already. But you won't need to as this time it will work, won't it?? PMA, PMA, PMA.
I personally would like to have the chance to freeze but the odds of defrosting are 50/50 and so they always advise against it if you don't have many to freeze but like I said I have always had a good number of embies. They are the experts but not the ones getting OHSS each time!!
I am going to speak to my consultant about baby asparin although as I got PG before he may say 'No'. It's hard to know what's best isn't it?
Best of luck for 13th April, my fingers are crossed.
Love Dagny xkx
Me 38 DH 40
1st 2nd & 4th IVF/ICSI -ve
3rd +ve DD Katelyn born @ 24wks & sadly died
5th +ve m/c 9wks
6th +ve Twins Sadly DD Leah stillborn @20wks and DS Kieran born @22wks but sadly died too
7th +ve - DD Chloë Mae born @38wks our precious miracle
1st 2nd & 4th IVF/ICSI -ve
3rd +ve DD Katelyn born @ 24wks & sadly died
5th +ve m/c 9wks
6th +ve Twins Sadly DD Leah stillborn @20wks and DS Kieran born @22wks but sadly died too
7th +ve - DD Chloë Mae born @38wks our precious miracle
Hi you two
Just popped on as we have very similar history's. Both my tubes are blocked and severlely - well only hve one now as one removed after ectoopic on first IVF and the other is clipped as they could not get it out - stuck to the bowel!
First IVF - 29 eggs and got 14 fertilized - got two grade one's to put back in and the rest either double cleaved or were 2.5/s or 3's - they like to freeze 2's and above so binned them all.
This resulted in ectopic!
2nd IVF - tried to slow down my stims as first was ready after 5 days! and managed 6 days this time!!! 41 eggs (don;t ask!!! - I was 36!) and out of this we got 2 grade ones for putting back in and 9 ones and two's for freezing - 8 that had fertilised were 3's so no go! This was a negative - I was borderline overstimming anyway but made them put them in!
3rd FET- negative
4th FET - pg with Oliver who died at 17-20 wks
5th FET - pg with twins.
Not sure if this helps - mine are picky about freezing and I should point out we hve a 100% thaw rate!
Good luck with it all.
Love
Tracey
xxx
Just popped on as we have very similar history's. Both my tubes are blocked and severlely - well only hve one now as one removed after ectoopic on first IVF and the other is clipped as they could not get it out - stuck to the bowel!
First IVF - 29 eggs and got 14 fertilized - got two grade one's to put back in and the rest either double cleaved or were 2.5/s or 3's - they like to freeze 2's and above so binned them all.
This resulted in ectopic!
2nd IVF - tried to slow down my stims as first was ready after 5 days! and managed 6 days this time!!! 41 eggs (don;t ask!!! - I was 36!) and out of this we got 2 grade ones for putting back in and 9 ones and two's for freezing - 8 that had fertilised were 3's so no go! This was a negative - I was borderline overstimming anyway but made them put them in!
3rd FET- negative
4th FET - pg with Oliver who died at 17-20 wks
5th FET - pg with twins.
Not sure if this helps - mine are picky about freezing and I should point out we hve a 100% thaw rate!
Good luck with it all.
Love
Tracey
xxx
ttc 9 years. 38 yrs old, dh 8 hrs younger!First IVF in Aug 2002 and had ectopic.2nd IVF neg.3rd FET and negative.4th FET and positive but sadly lost our little boy at 20 weeks.5th FET and Alice Isobel and Emily Charlotte born 5th Aug 2004!
Tracey
41 eggs
Flippin' eck girlie - from how many follicles??
Love Dagny xkx
41 eggs
Flippin' eck girlie - from how many follicles??
Love Dagny xkx
Me 38 DH 40
1st 2nd & 4th IVF/ICSI -ve
3rd +ve DD Katelyn born @ 24wks & sadly died
5th +ve m/c 9wks
6th +ve Twins Sadly DD Leah stillborn @20wks and DS Kieran born @22wks but sadly died too
7th +ve - DD Chloë Mae born @38wks our precious miracle
1st 2nd & 4th IVF/ICSI -ve
3rd +ve DD Katelyn born @ 24wks & sadly died
5th +ve m/c 9wks
6th +ve Twins Sadly DD Leah stillborn @20wks and DS Kieran born @22wks but sadly died too
7th +ve - DD Chloë Mae born @38wks our precious miracle
Hello Dagny and Tracey,
Dagney,i was told that I had fluid on one side from my original lap and dye. But after the tubal surgery (2 years later) the consultant said that I didnt?! (but then he seems loath to go into any detail about anything with me or am I just paranoid?) In fact that was partly my reason to have the op having read about so many people having swollen tubes removed to improve ivf odds. It was only a vain hope that Id keep one or both tubes and get em unblocked, I really expected that theyd probably whip them out.Of all the possible causes of mc the swollen tube wasnt mentioned anywhere.
Tracey ,wishing you all the best with your twins, what an inspiration!Its difficult to know what to make of the defrost stats isnt it if you got 100% thaw success presumably with embryos frozen after theyd already divided?!I also got 100% thaw survival but my first 14 were frozen before they divided (freeze all due to OHSS). At the time I was quoted thawing stats that applied generally to FEs. Its only a couple of FETs down the line that Im told that the stage of development before freezing is a factor in their chance of survival rate( ie if frozen straight away then less likely to be lost through thawing) and now your experience seems to stand that on its head! Im starting to think that variations between people and cycles may have more relevance (when trying to make decisions on treatment which depend on how many are frozen/thawed) than broad general stats for a whole population?
Sorry to ramble you two Im experiencing two week wait mania and Ive got 7 days to go arghhhhh
love and good luck Annie
Dagney,i was told that I had fluid on one side from my original lap and dye. But after the tubal surgery (2 years later) the consultant said that I didnt?! (but then he seems loath to go into any detail about anything with me or am I just paranoid?) In fact that was partly my reason to have the op having read about so many people having swollen tubes removed to improve ivf odds. It was only a vain hope that Id keep one or both tubes and get em unblocked, I really expected that theyd probably whip them out.Of all the possible causes of mc the swollen tube wasnt mentioned anywhere.
Tracey ,wishing you all the best with your twins, what an inspiration!Its difficult to know what to make of the defrost stats isnt it if you got 100% thaw success presumably with embryos frozen after theyd already divided?!I also got 100% thaw survival but my first 14 were frozen before they divided (freeze all due to OHSS). At the time I was quoted thawing stats that applied generally to FEs. Its only a couple of FETs down the line that Im told that the stage of development before freezing is a factor in their chance of survival rate( ie if frozen straight away then less likely to be lost through thawing) and now your experience seems to stand that on its head! Im starting to think that variations between people and cycles may have more relevance (when trying to make decisions on treatment which depend on how many are frozen/thawed) than broad general stats for a whole population?
Sorry to ramble you two Im experiencing two week wait mania and Ive got 7 days to go arghhhhh
love and good luck Annie
Hi you two
Dagny - 41 eggs from 29 follicles but must have been some follies hiding. I was in theatre so long they thought I had died under the anaesthetic!!!
Annie - I know it is all so hard - all mine were frozen the same day so hard to say. I wanted them to defrost them on my 4th go - 2nd FET and take them to 3 days plus but they pursuaded me not to and put them straight back as the body prefers that especially with frozen - worked twice!
As for aspirin -was taking on 2nd go and 3rd and 4th but not 5th. So worked without on first but ectopic and with on 4th and without on 5th - your guess is as good as mine!
Good luck
Love
Tracey
xxx
Dagny - 41 eggs from 29 follicles but must have been some follies hiding. I was in theatre so long they thought I had died under the anaesthetic!!!
Annie - I know it is all so hard - all mine were frozen the same day so hard to say. I wanted them to defrost them on my 4th go - 2nd FET and take them to 3 days plus but they pursuaded me not to and put them straight back as the body prefers that especially with frozen - worked twice!
As for aspirin -was taking on 2nd go and 3rd and 4th but not 5th. So worked without on first but ectopic and with on 4th and without on 5th - your guess is as good as mine!
Good luck
Love
Tracey
xxx
ttc 9 years. 38 yrs old, dh 8 hrs younger!First IVF in Aug 2002 and had ectopic.2nd IVF neg.3rd FET and negative.4th FET and positive but sadly lost our little boy at 20 weeks.5th FET and Alice Isobel and Emily Charlotte born 5th Aug 2004!
Dear Tracey,
Ive not had a chance to post for little while. Thanks for your details, Im a bit confused though bec ause I didnt know you could have the option of letting frozen embryos divide for any more than 24 hours after thawing my place havent mentioned this or dont do it.
Also when I was overstimmed the first time I too made 14 embryos (from 30 eggs collected fromapprox 60-70 follicles) but they wouldnt let me ET (OHSS risk)and froze all on the same day before they had divided.I thought they would always do any freezing of embryos from the same cycle altogether on the same day Its interesting how similar circumstances are treated so differently from clinic to clinic!! Best wishes for your pregnancy and happy Easter
Ive not had a chance to post for little while. Thanks for your details, Im a bit confused though bec ause I didnt know you could have the option of letting frozen embryos divide for any more than 24 hours after thawing my place havent mentioned this or dont do it.
Also when I was overstimmed the first time I too made 14 embryos (from 30 eggs collected fromapprox 60-70 follicles) but they wouldnt let me ET (OHSS risk)and froze all on the same day before they had divided.I thought they would always do any freezing of embryos from the same cycle altogether on the same day Its interesting how similar circumstances are treated so differently from clinic to clinic!! Best wishes for your pregnancy and happy Easter