Active natural killer cells

alison p · Post by **alison p** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 5:59 pm

Dear all, I have been tested at my clinic for natural killer cells. Apparently I had a normal number, but they were active. One of the doctors there is doing a study and reckons that active NK cells could be a factor in getting pregnant since the literature (mainly done by a Dr Beer in Chicago) suggests that they can attack the embryos - seeing them as foreign bodies. I have been put on steroids for 2 weeks - and if all goes well and it works, they have suggested taking them for the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. Has anyone else heard of this? The active NK cells have also been found to be common in women who've had multiple early miscarriages. I'm hoping that this is the reason why my last 3 ICSI attempts have failed - in fact, I'm willing to try anything at the moment! I've also heard about a new trial in some clinics around the UK for women who've had 3 or more failed IVF cycles. Anyone heard about this as well? Thanks, Alison

Vicki70 · Post by **Vicki70** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:36 pm

Hi there alison, thanks for your reply to my post, sorry i can't answer your questions i have never heard of natural killer cells!!! Do your clinic always test for these on everyone?? Good luck next time, Love Vicki

Alison · Post by **Alison** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:08 pm

Hi Alison - at my follow up this week they were talking about testing for anti-bodies that might "attack" the embryo and stop it sticking (as I've had two bio-chemical PGs now) and giving me some sort of treatment to stop this (different antibodies? antigens? can't remember and I did biology A level but its all a hazy memory!) Just wondered whether Americans may refer to "natural killers" instead of anti-bodies?! No idea really! Anyway, let us know how it goes and GOOD LUCK! (the other) Alison x

BB · Post by BB » Thu May 01, 2003 7:31 am

Alison P thank you so much for posting this, this subject is absolutely fasinating. I have started to do some look into this and I can confirm that Alison the anti-bodies you are talking about is the same as the cells Alison P is referring to. What is interesting about this is that it is all to do with the immune system which causes endiometris (I should learn to spell that)and thyroid gland problems, both of which I have. Anyway, I am off to do more research on the subject. Please post if anyone finds out more on this subject BB

Natalie100 · Post by **Natalie100** » Thu May 01, 2003 7:39 am

Alison This is the first post I have seen about antibodies.........but I have them too!!. There are about 20 different types of antibodies and I have read about NK cells. I found out 3 weeks ago that I have elevated antithyroid antibodies, they can also attack the embryo before implantation or even lead to m/c. This seems to fit weel with my history as we had our first failed ICSI in March and 1 m/c Jan last year. Normal levels should be 50 or below and mine is 119. Obviously very gutted....and the only reason I had the antibody test was because I read it in a book, god only knows how long it would have taken to be picked up!. I know they use Prednisone (steroid) to help supress the immune system, but also another factor is they stop the blood flow so when the embie try and implant they dont have enough blood, if they do suceed then they may starve later on (which is probably what happened to us). They normally use Heaprin for this, have you heard of it??. I am starting another ICSI this month and go to get my drugs on 12th May where I will also get my Heparin injections. I have managed to get them on the NHS as they are not classed as a fertility drug (in other words I would need them in a normal pg).......they are very exspensive and I would have to take them for 9 months if it works. I have lost of info that I found on antibodies, and its quite possbile that may be why you have had failed IVF in the past....the worst thing is the fact that you will never know... If you want to talk or have any other questions..im here. Love Natsxx

BB · Post by BB » Thu May 01, 2003 10:07 am

Nat, did you have the antibody test in the IVF clinic or was it through your GP? I have done some more research and I am going to try and get a referral from my GP to a specialist on the subject as I have many symptons of a 'weak' immune system that are not related to IVF. If I can get this referral my private health policy should cover it. Have you seen anyone about the immune system or are you taking all your advise from the IVF clinic? cheers BB

Natalie100 · Post by **Natalie100** » Thu May 01, 2003 11:17 am

Hi BB We posted at the same time so didnt see oyur post until afterwards!! I was diagnosed with an overactive thyroid 4 years ago, they put me on tablets (12 a day and beta blockers to slow the old heart down) but after 14 long months I decided enough was enough and opted for radioactive iodine. I had that done and became underactive, however it only took around 3 months to stablise that. It wasnt until I was readin an IVF book about 3 weeks after our - that I read repeated IVF failures can be because of antithyroid antibodies, or m/c. I have never had the antibody level checked only TSH and T4........so when I went back for a review at the IVF clinic I talked to him about it and he said that I should have the blood test done...I went back to the doc and asked him, without any questions he said yes......and as they say the rest is history!. The antibody level can go up and down but I dont think that mine will ever go down to 50 from 119!!. The IVF book said that even if your thyroid is under control and you have no symptoms the antibody level can still be high.......I just knew when I read it that mine would be!!. The IVF clinic are very happy to treat me with Heparin (he seemed to know alot about antibodies thank god) and I have managed to get them on the NHS, although I wont even have to pay for the prescription as I have an exemption ceretificate because of my thyroid. I dont want to alarm you but I would strongly reccomend that you get you antibody level checked.......your own GP should do it without any problems. I will say that my IVF clinic said that out of all the antibodies you can have the thyroid one is about the 7th worst so its not all doom and gloom. I go back to the IVF clinic on 12th May to talk about what dose heparin I will need as I start down reg on 19th May. I want to also ask him about steroids as I have heard a few people take them aswell. Have you ever had your antibody cheked??. Are you under or overactive?. Oh so many questions!! sorry just being nosey. Love Natsxx

Natalie100 · Post by **Natalie100** » Thu May 01, 2003 11:21 am

BB Sorry forgot to say that I am still under my thyroid consultant and have been using both him, my GP and the IVf clinic. I have also always had a very weak immune system and am always ill. My biggest problem is that I suffer from cysts on my legs and spine. I had one removed about 4 years ago on my spine and am waiting for anothet one to be removed...apart from that I feel like I am always on antibiotics!!. My GP doesnt seem to bothered about all the lumps and bumps I get but I talked him round to sending me to a speialist....probably get to see him in about a year!!. What do you suffer with then, if you have a weak immune system??. have you ever seena specialist about your thyroid??. Love natsxx

alison p · Post by **alison p** » Thu May 01, 2003 2:04 pm

Dear all, Thanks for all your replies. The more you delve, the more interesting it becomes! I had my thyroid levels tested (normal), but not anti-thyroid antibodies. There doesn't seem to be a standard set of tests that the clinics perfom before IVF (apart from the basic FSH, LH, P4) - perhaps it would be too expensive for patients to have absolutely everything tested. It seems that they only start investigating new things once you've had a few failures. My NK cells were tested at the hospital - we had to pay for the blood test that measured their numbers, but the activation test was done for free as it is part of the doctor's trial. I'm clinging to the hope that this has been the problem all along - but I will never know as I've also been having acupuncture!! Best of luck to all, Alison

Grace · Post by **Grace** » Thu May 01, 2003 5:14 pm

Hi Girls As everyone says it so good to be back...I don't post very much but I really, really missed keeping up with everyone. I am really interested in the NK cell test theories and in a way hoping that this might be the reason that I have failed to conceive. My last negative ICSI cyle was February (my 5th!!! really am an old hand now unfortunately) Anyway, when we had the review meeting my at the clinic my doctor recommended we do the test before the next cycle.(Lister, anyone else there?) They really can't give us any other answers as we have had really good quality eggs transferred on every occassion. We might try blastocyst transfer too but other than that no other recommendations except keep trying!! Will hopefully try again during the summer in the mean time am trying to get fit (ha!ha!) ran round the block last Saturday and it nearly killed me! and have started going to the gym again. I am also trying accupuncture if nothing else hoping it will help with relaxation. I was wondering what are the symptoms of thyroid problems? How much did the NK cells test cost? Any other information on this subject would be most welcome as it appears to a relatively new test. Take care. Gracex

BB · Post by BB » Thu May 01, 2003 9:17 pm

Hi Nat, damn buggering bollocks (sorry Dr Marcus)!!! I purposively asked the IVF clinic would my thyroid have any affect on my treatment and asked about tests. When I asked they didn't seem to be aware that I had a thyroid problem even though it is in my notes. It was only when they put me on high dosage of drugs cos they reckoned my FSH was high they are started to dig around and found that the thyroid affected the FSH. So I asked again and still nothing. So they just let us waste all that money. Right I am calming down. I was diagnosed with an overactive thyroid about 13 years ago. They treated me much like yourself and I also took the radioactive gup. Like you mine also went under and also mine was regulated very quickly. After reading loads today I am fairly sure I have a immune system problem as I suffer from endiometris, arthritis and chronic tiredness (as well as said thyroid). All of which point to the immune system. The strange thing is though in the last 5 years I have seldom been ill with bugs. I will make an appointment tomorrow with my GP to see if I can get tested. If I am I will discuss with him the possiblity of a referral to a specialist as my private health will cover that. If I do find I have naughty antibodies the IVF clinic are really going to hear about it. They should never have let me go through the treatment without the test. What is really bugging me (haha antibodies, bugging) is I don't think I will have the heart to tell DH. As I have already so many reasons why I cant get pg. I suppose I will wait for the results of the tests before crossing that bridge. I will let you know how my GP appointment goes cheers BB

Mandy · Post by **Mandy** » Thu May 01, 2003 9:51 pm

Hi Guys , I was diagnosed with underactive thyroid about 2 years ago and have been on thyroine since only 50mcg but on my last blood test a couple of weeks ago, I was informed to put it upto 100mcg. I have had 3 failed IVF/ICSI so far 2 fresh 1 frozen all with good embies but no PG could this be the reason, should I be on Heprine? God it is so frustraiting that they don't tell u these things. We have already spent 18 months and £10,000. We are planning our next cycle(hope to egg share) and want the best chance possible. Any adice or info would be really appreciated. TTFN Mandyxxxx

Helen S · Post by **Helen S** » Fri May 02, 2003 7:52 am

Hi everyone Sorry to be completely thick, but I insisted on a test for antiphospholipid antibodies after 3 failed ICSI's which were all good cycles with fab embies but were not succesful. Is the anti whotsit the same as the natural killer cells? By the way my test was -ive - I was below the acceptable levels. Thanks for your help, just wanted to check. Much love to all and good luck everyone. Helen. xx

Natalie100 · Post by **Natalie100** » Fri May 02, 2003 8:00 am

BB I would love to hear what you GP says and infact what the IVf clinic says. Mine to had the notes about the thyroid but never really talked about it. It does make you angry to think that it could them that caused the IVF failure (although I have just put 2 and 2 together). I think the worst thing is not ever truly knowing if that its why because they will never be able to tell you for sure. I was going to ask my clinic when i go back about the FSH, I have never had that tested, although when I had IVF in Feb I had really good eggs and a good fertilisation rate....so im not sure about that, I will ask them though!! Please keep me posted and I will let you know how I get on. Mandy- Just because you have a thyroid probelm doesnt always mean you have a high antibody count, its just a possiblilty......and sure enough mine was high. The only thing I can say is that my clinic told me if I had a high antibody count that i would have to take Heparin. I would suggest that you get you thyroid antibody level tested, (not TSH & T4). I got mine done by my GP, took 2 weeks for the results. Until then I wouldnt panic. Good luck. Grace-All I can say to you is have your antibodies checked. I have had all of them done now (thyroid, Lupus, NK cells etc etc) and the only one that came back positive was the thyroid. When I was overactive I felt like I was on a high......always running around, couldnt sleep, had sweats and lost alot of weight, when I became underactive I felt tired, and lethargic and of cours eput on weight!!. The degree of symptoms do vary from person to person. I hope they manage to find why your ICSI have failed.......I know I felt crap when I found out but at least we know now and can do something about it. Love Natsxx

Grace · Post by **Grace** » Fri May 02, 2003 5:44 pm

Hi Girls Helen, Just wanted to say that the antiphosolipid test that you had done is different to the NK test. The antiphos. checks for sticky blood!! (all gets so confusing!) I had the anti thingy done too but mine like yours was negative in some ways I was hoping for a positive as I thought there may be a new way ahead then. I also had some chromosome tests done but they were fine too, which was good. It is difficult when there seems no reason why it's not working is n't it? I find it really frustrating. Then again everything about this whole business is frustrating, never mind am still trying to be positive. I am just hoping my luck will change soon, ever the optomist - well not always I must admit. Are you going to have another go soon? I think you had a cycle around the same time as my last one. Nats, thanks for the tip. I think I will have a chat with my GP about those other tests you mentioned. At this stage I feel I might as well check out all avenues before I get on the old roller coaster once again. The good thing about all this is, I think there is alot more research going into the reasons why some women are lucky first time and why it seems to take a lot longer for others. This is an interesting topic and any further information would be most welcome. Have a good weekend everyone despite this horrible rain! Grace.

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