Hi All
Had my follow up yesterday, and have now had 2 x fresh cycles and 1 x FET, all producing good embryos (8 grade 1s, and then 11 grade 2), but none want to implant!
My consultant said that my one of the NK cell counts is borderline and suggested that I have another test at the start of treatment and possibly have steroids during my next fresh cycle(so I guess I will put on even more weight!).
The other thing she has suggested is we have PGD done on our next lot of embies. She said that research has shown that although embies look normal sometimes they are missing a chromosone and this can stop implantation. Basically they would screen my embies and only put back the ones that were ok,giving me a much better chance of getting pg, I would have none to freeze and it will cost an additional £1500!!!!
Has anyone had either of these things done??
Dont know what to do at the mo, am 39 later this year, so dont know whether to go the whole hog next time and do everything or to keep trying as I have been and hope for lady luck to help?!
Asked if I would be better to have assisted hatching or blasto but she seemed to think that PGD was a better option....call me a cynic but cant help thinking that as this is a relatively new treatment I am part of an experiment, then again they are the doctors.
Views/experiences please ladies!!!!
Sue xxxxxxxx
Follow up..PGD and Steroids?!...Advice needed
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Natalie100
- Member
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 10:15 am
- Location: Essex
Hi Sue
Dont know how much of this will help really but here is what I know or my experience should I say...
from what I know PGD is not peformed here in the uk, they send the ceels to Valencia to be tested and your embies would be transfered at a blastocycst stage. It is common for embies to get that far and be abnormal. Have you had chromosome blood tests run at all because these pick up the major problems such as downs. Only cost £100 each both need to be tested and this may well show something, we have both had them done and it showed that we had 46 chromosomes..all normal and correct. It is also possible to have these tests run but not show anything yet you could still have a chromosome problem. Infact the only way to actually know 100% is to have PGD as some chromosomes will change once fertilisation has taken place. Someone I knwo who is 43 has just had PGD done, via Valenica. Out of her 10 embies sent, only 2 came back normal yet all of them made it to blastocyst stage.
As for the NK cells, these can play a huge part, it means if you have then your body is seeing an embryos as a foriegn body and destroying it. Some dr's believe IVIG (blood trasnfusion will help this) others dont believe it one bit. The majority of clinics tend to treat people (especially when only borderline) with Heparin and Prednisolene.
One thing I will say with PGD is that if some come back anbormal and some dont give off a signal they wont even transfer them, you have to be prepared of the possibility of having none to transfer.
Im hope this has helped.
Natx
Dont know how much of this will help really but here is what I know or my experience should I say...
from what I know PGD is not peformed here in the uk, they send the ceels to Valencia to be tested and your embies would be transfered at a blastocycst stage. It is common for embies to get that far and be abnormal. Have you had chromosome blood tests run at all because these pick up the major problems such as downs. Only cost £100 each both need to be tested and this may well show something, we have both had them done and it showed that we had 46 chromosomes..all normal and correct. It is also possible to have these tests run but not show anything yet you could still have a chromosome problem. Infact the only way to actually know 100% is to have PGD as some chromosomes will change once fertilisation has taken place. Someone I knwo who is 43 has just had PGD done, via Valenica. Out of her 10 embies sent, only 2 came back normal yet all of them made it to blastocyst stage.
As for the NK cells, these can play a huge part, it means if you have then your body is seeing an embryos as a foriegn body and destroying it. Some dr's believe IVIG (blood trasnfusion will help this) others dont believe it one bit. The majority of clinics tend to treat people (especially when only borderline) with Heparin and Prednisolene.
One thing I will say with PGD is that if some come back anbormal and some dont give off a signal they wont even transfer them, you have to be prepared of the possibility of having none to transfer.
Im hope this has helped.
Natx
Hi Sue
Am I right in thinking that you attend the Lister too and see Dr Wren?
My situation is similar in that we have always had "excellent" embryos but none have implanted although I have had quite a few more cycles than you.
My NK cells showed up borderline too and for the last treatmeant I was on steroids. I was a bit frightend of them to be honest, thought I would baloon etc etc but it was fine. I did n't really notice any difference of course it may be different if I was on them for longer but only had to take them from embryo transfer.
On this last cycle we did have assisted hatching and opted for three day transfer. The ones left over made it to blasts but were n't good enough to freeze.
When we went to our review she did suggest we might think about pgd for the next treatmeant. I am still not sure about it, but seeing as we have tried everything else including every test under the sun perhaps we will find the key here. It could be that our embryos although they seem pretty good are not. In someways I feel it might give me some closure but as I say I am not sure.
As Natalie said could be worth doing the chromsome tests. Ours were okay. Also I think the Lister are starting an IVIG programme soon. It is available at ARGC. I know there are alot of mixed feelings on this procedure and I would have thought if your levels were just borderline you should be okay. I don't know much about it though.
The only other new thing which we might try is Clexane which I think thins the blood somewhat and may help in implantation.
It is all very confusing and horrible is n't it. To be honest no one seems to have any real answers and we are still being told it could still be down to plain bad luck!!...not sure though.
I really wish you well. Keep in touch Sue. When do you think you might try again??
Love
Gracexx
Am I right in thinking that you attend the Lister too and see Dr Wren?
My situation is similar in that we have always had "excellent" embryos but none have implanted although I have had quite a few more cycles than you.
My NK cells showed up borderline too and for the last treatmeant I was on steroids. I was a bit frightend of them to be honest, thought I would baloon etc etc but it was fine. I did n't really notice any difference of course it may be different if I was on them for longer but only had to take them from embryo transfer.
On this last cycle we did have assisted hatching and opted for three day transfer. The ones left over made it to blasts but were n't good enough to freeze.
When we went to our review she did suggest we might think about pgd for the next treatmeant. I am still not sure about it, but seeing as we have tried everything else including every test under the sun perhaps we will find the key here. It could be that our embryos although they seem pretty good are not. In someways I feel it might give me some closure but as I say I am not sure.
As Natalie said could be worth doing the chromsome tests. Ours were okay. Also I think the Lister are starting an IVIG programme soon. It is available at ARGC. I know there are alot of mixed feelings on this procedure and I would have thought if your levels were just borderline you should be okay. I don't know much about it though.
The only other new thing which we might try is Clexane which I think thins the blood somewhat and may help in implantation.
It is all very confusing and horrible is n't it. To be honest no one seems to have any real answers and we are still being told it could still be down to plain bad luck!!...not sure though.
I really wish you well. Keep in touch Sue. When do you think you might try again??
Love
Gracexx
Hi Sue,
I had a m/c in July, due to a chromosome problem. The clinic advised that we had our embryos screened to reduce the chance of this happening again.
I became pregnant again on my next cycle (with PGD) but miscarried again over Xmas again due to a chromosome problem.
When they carry out PGD, they only test for the most common chromosome problems and our second m/c was due to quite a rare sort. You can see from my experience that it is not foolproof, although we never regretted having it done and will do it again on any future cycles (if we decide to go again!).
Our PGD involved testing in the states and cost £2,500. It was well worth it as many of our embryos came back with problems.
Following this second miscarriage, we have also had the karyotyping test which Nat is talking about. They take blood from you both to tell you if you carry a chromosome problem that you could be passing onto your baby. The cost was £300 for us both, which seemed not too bad a price. Our results came back clear.
I have also just had all the NK blood tests done and am waiting for the results.
Sounds to me like your clinic are quite progressive and trying to do their best for you!
Good Luck, Love Rach XX.
P.S. I also had steriod tablets on last 2 cycles and didn't put on that much weight, although I didn't feel great on them!
I had a m/c in July, due to a chromosome problem. The clinic advised that we had our embryos screened to reduce the chance of this happening again.
I became pregnant again on my next cycle (with PGD) but miscarried again over Xmas again due to a chromosome problem.
When they carry out PGD, they only test for the most common chromosome problems and our second m/c was due to quite a rare sort. You can see from my experience that it is not foolproof, although we never regretted having it done and will do it again on any future cycles (if we decide to go again!).
Our PGD involved testing in the states and cost £2,500. It was well worth it as many of our embryos came back with problems.
Following this second miscarriage, we have also had the karyotyping test which Nat is talking about. They take blood from you both to tell you if you carry a chromosome problem that you could be passing onto your baby. The cost was £300 for us both, which seemed not too bad a price. Our results came back clear.
I have also just had all the NK blood tests done and am waiting for the results.
Sounds to me like your clinic are quite progressive and trying to do their best for you!
Good Luck, Love Rach XX.
P.S. I also had steriod tablets on last 2 cycles and didn't put on that much weight, although I didn't feel great on them!
hihi sue
its so difficult when there is so many possibilities, u feel u are going
round in circles not knowing what is the right decision.
I cannot help regarding the pgd screening, but just want to mention
about the steriods.
I had 3 treatments at the london womens clinic and after the
1st failed treatment they decided on assisted hatching because
of my age (42) and also put me on steroids although they did
not do any blood tests, this again was repeated on my 3rd attempt.
we then changed to the lister, and we had a blood test for the NK cell
and i was told i was border line, so again i was prescribed steroids
also with assisted hatching with 3 day transfer, i only had 6 embies
so they would not have taken the risk of waiting to day 5 blastocycst.
and to astonishment it worked, im still taking the steroids and
will do up until 12wks, have to say have had no bad side effects
the only one is i cant get to sleep at night and generally have quite
a bit of energy!!!!!
I hope this helps, let us know what you decide
alisonn
its so difficult when there is so many possibilities, u feel u are going
round in circles not knowing what is the right decision.
I cannot help regarding the pgd screening, but just want to mention
about the steriods.
I had 3 treatments at the london womens clinic and after the
1st failed treatment they decided on assisted hatching because
of my age (42) and also put me on steroids although they did
not do any blood tests, this again was repeated on my 3rd attempt.
we then changed to the lister, and we had a blood test for the NK cell
and i was told i was border line, so again i was prescribed steroids
also with assisted hatching with 3 day transfer, i only had 6 embies
so they would not have taken the risk of waiting to day 5 blastocycst.
and to astonishment it worked, im still taking the steroids and
will do up until 12wks, have to say have had no bad side effects
the only one is i cant get to sleep at night and generally have quite
a bit of energy!!!!!
I hope this helps, let us know what you decide
alisonn